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Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:02 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

- Dontos

I do have more I can add, but I want to see what kind of silly post Doug will do for them.....

ah, that is besides the 'cute whittle kitty' above

Don

Whatever it takes, Don...whatever it takes. Wink

Guess I might need to actually get the entire series and scan them instead of taking a quick photo of them.

You hereby exhorted to do so officially. Less talk, more scanning!
Laughing

Kurt_Laughlin · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 577

If there is a larger shot of the M60A2s on the flat car available there may be some date info to be gleaned from the car markings.

I tried the "Properties" & paste trick mentioned elsewhere, didn't work . . .
KL

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:07 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

- Kurt_Laughlin

I tried the "Properties" & paste trick mentioned elsewhere, didn't work . . .
KL

Kurt,
In this case, it's not because the method doesn't work, but because the original images Don has hosted were posted there in sizes less than the maximum allowable here. That is, the "real size" he hosted are a "what you see is what you get" deal. No benefit to the "copy/paste properties" thing.

Had he put images of, say, 1200 x 1500 pixels up, then you'd notice a difference. (and I sure hope he does, because I want those images in a higher res...great stuff!).

I love the two M60A1 turrets on the flatbed. The very essence of the A1/A3 silhouette with no clutter.

Dontos · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

I usually reduce images and size to ease the posting or viewing headache. I will check on my 'original photo' (its merely a digital snapshot of the actual photo, so there is some loss of clarity.

.....Be right back with something better... Rolling Eyes

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:17 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

- Joe_D

They also all come with the T142 track with replaceable pads.

Joe,
I noticed that too. When, exactly, were those introduced?....never saw any during my "tenure".

T'anks in advance....

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

Off the Hip,

I think 1973, although fielding probably kicked it back to 1974. M60A1 AOS were the first to have them with top loader air filters and of course, Add On gun Stabilization.

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

- Joe_D

Off the Hip,

I think 1973, although fielding probably kicked it back to 1974. M60A1 AOS were the first to have them with top loader air filters and of course, Add On gun Stabilization.

Joe,

Thanks...one thing leads to another...

And AOS was introduced, specifically, when? (Never saw that one, either).

T.I.A.

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

Program was started as the M60A1IP or PI,

Improved product or product improved.
Top loaders came first,
Then came the stabilization,
you put them altogether and you get the AOS, which was step I in the fleet upgrades. My info says 1972. I don't honestly believe the track factored in the AOS designation, only the Filters and Stabilization. Just that new tanks coming off the line would have the T142 track. Track was one of those that would change based on how much money the unit wanted to spend. Much like M1A1's equipped with old T156 chevron track when they should have the T158 pad model. We had T97 track on some of our M60A3's at Fort Irwin when I was with 1-63 Armor. Stateside units, especially TRADOC ones did this since the OP Tempo was so high in the school houses.

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:57 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

Thanks, Joe...

What I find strange is that I was never exposed to AOS or anything BUT chevron track through the end of '73 on an M60A1, even at the Armor Board. And that includes the M60A2 Initial Production Test vehicles. Those were chevron track (and of course, integral stabilization, if you consider it rising to the dignity of that term). Seems odd that the A2's (we had three for the test) had the old track. I never saw replaceable track pads until I was well out of the Army (though I confess I wasn't following things much when I went back to school...co-eds, ya' know, and no internet).

I suddenly feel older than I....feel.

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:22 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

IIRC most/if not all A2's came off the line with the T97 chevron track.

I personally believe the T142 track came out on production tanks around late '74 early '75. As far as it's effect on vehicle typing, It all depends on who's book you read. Some claim the T142 was for the AOS, others say it was for the RISE package. IMO it was for neither, and just was a newer track that came available for use. Much like the difference between the AVDS1790-2 and AVDS1790-2A. The -2A came out with the M60A1, the most noticeable change was the relocation of the fill spout. On the -2 it was in front by the dip stick, with the -2A it was moved to the back next to the transmission. This was done to keep spilled oil from fouling the oil coolers during topping off. If you spill oil by the transmission it isn't a problem. Most later M60 tankers never knew this because as engines were replaced all the M60's got -2A's and by the early 70's the -2 didn't exist anymore. No official MWO or designator was needed for the tank since they swapped out with no mods, just like track.

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:09 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

- Joe_D

IIRC most/if not all A2's came off the line with the T97 chevron track.

I personally believe the T142 track came out on production tanks around late '74 early '75. As far as it's effect on vehicle typing, It all depends on who's book you read. Some claim the T142 was for the AOS, others say it was for the RISE package. IMO it was for neither, and just was a newer track that came available for use. Much like the difference between the AVDS1790-2 and AVDS1790-2A. The -2A came out with the M60A1, the most noticeable change was the relocation of the fill spout. On the -2 it was in front by the dip stick, with the -2A it was moved to the back next to the transmission. This was done to keep spilled oil from fouling the oil coolers during topping off. If you spill oil by the transmission it isn't a problem. Most later M60 tankers never knew this because as engines were replaced all the M60's got -2A's and by the early 70's the -2 didn't exist anymore. No official MWO or designator was needed for the tank since they swapped out with no mods, just like track.

Joe,
I'd buy into that that one. What can I say, I was at "The Board" (not a unit that wanted for service, or trick parts, or much of anything...we had three welders for a Company when the normal compliment was one for a Battalion) AND at the Armor Center (have to believe they had some sort of priority for tanky-stuff...as well as a Commandant of the Armor School that got really pissy about track damage to roads around his school...like end-connectors tearing up his curbs. I think his first name was "George" Wink

). Somehow, I never saw replaceable track pads with all that stroke around by the end of '73. I have a hard time believing it was "in service" in fielded units and Donn Starry (and that other guy) didn't have any at the "Home of Armor" if it was available, even in limited supply.

I don't know what the documents might say, but I sure as s*** know what track I was driving on or changing in Heard Motor Park. When we changed, we changed the whole track. (though changing pads actually sounds like more work, once you get those "sections of eight" broken down and the new track on.

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

What can I say,

I have my opinions but I am careful not to throw stones unless I have real facts to back them up. I don't know if it's the lack of combat pedigree or maybe a lack of "sexiness", but the M60 really doesn't get that in depth research other systems do. The few that do cover it are either dated or just do a cursory bio on them. I find it ironic that the best source on the subject is Mr. Hunnicutt's "Patton" book, which covers from the M46 to the M60. There is no really good book that specifically covers the M60 series in depth. A real shame considering how many were made and how long they served.

though changing pads actually sounds like more work

Trust me, not much fun. On the M60 we're talking 360 pads, M1 352 pads.
Two ways to do it. IMO removing the track and changing them was easier in the long run.

Sabot · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

Changing out the entire track is much easier, but take it from a guy who's managed the Class IX budget for an armor battalion, when money's tight and track needs repair, sometimes the only option is to go the less expensive route and do track pads and centerguides only.

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

Amen Rob,

That, and to remove, "spin 180" , replace sprockets (M1), and then re-install the track to even end connector wear. Something most units never did unless money was tight. But you could only do this with the omni-directional T142 and T158 track.

I never thought I'd say it, but I miss it now. But I don't think I could hang with the Kids anymore Sad

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: For all the M60A1 Fans

- Joe_D

Amen Rob,

That, and to remove, "spin 180" , replace sprockets (M1), and then re-install the track to even end connector wear. Something most units never did unless money was tight. But you could only do this with the omni-directional T142 and T158 track.

I never thought I'd say it, but I miss it now. But I don't think I could hang with the Kids anymore

Joe,
I can recall swapping sprockets on chevron track, but my brain cells scream that it was more to reduce the "fish hook" effect on the sprocket teeth (which might, admittedly, contribute to end connector wear). Does that sound plausible?

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