±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 361
Total: 361
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Home
06: Photo Gallery
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Home
14: Member Screenshots
15: Home
16: Home
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Member Screenshots
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: News Archive
26: Home
27: Home
28: Home
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Home
32: Home
33: Community Forums
34: Member Screenshots
35: Home
36: Home
37: Home
38: Home
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Downloads
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Home
50: Home
51: Photo Gallery
52: Member Screenshots
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Home
57: News
58: Home
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Photo Gallery
65: Home
66: Home
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Home
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Member Screenshots
77: Downloads
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: News Archive
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Member Screenshots
90: Photo Gallery
91: Photo Gallery
92: Home
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Member Screenshots
97: Statistics
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Member Screenshots
103: Home
104: Home
105: Member Screenshots
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Downloads
111: Downloads
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: Home
116: Home
117: Photo Gallery
118: News Archive
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Home
123: Downloads
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: News Archive
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Home
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Member Screenshots
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Home
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Member Screenshots
147: Community Forums
148: Downloads
149: Member Screenshots
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Home
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Photo Gallery
167: Member Screenshots
168: Community Forums
169: Photo Gallery
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Member Screenshots
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Member Screenshots
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Member Screenshots
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Member Screenshots
183: Community Forums
184: Member Screenshots
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Member Screenshots
194: Home
195: Photo Gallery
196: Photo Gallery
197: Home
198: Home
199: Photo Gallery
200: Statistics
201: Your Account
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Member Screenshots
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Member Screenshots
209: Member Screenshots
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Your Account
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Member Screenshots
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Member Screenshots
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Home
225: Community Forums
226: Member Screenshots
227: Member Screenshots
228: Community Forums
229: Photo Gallery
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Home
236: Community Forums
237: Home
238: Home
239: Community Forums
240: Member Screenshots
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Home
248: Photo Gallery
249: Home
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Member Screenshots
255: Community Forums
256: Member Screenshots
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Home
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Downloads
274: Photo Gallery
275: Statistics
276: Community Forums
277: Photo Gallery
278: Community Forums
279: Member Screenshots
280: Community Forums
281: Home
282: Home
283: Home
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Downloads
293: Photo Gallery
294: Member Screenshots
295: Photo Gallery
296: Member Screenshots
297: Home
298: Member Screenshots
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: News Archive
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Community Forums
307: Home
308: Home
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Member Screenshots
314: Statistics
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Your Account
319: Community Forums
320: Photo Gallery
321: Community Forums
322: Downloads
323: Home
324: Home
325: Photo Gallery
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Home
330: Member Screenshots
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Member Screenshots
334: Community Forums
335: Member Screenshots
336: Member Screenshots
337: News Archive
338: News
339: Member Screenshots
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Member Screenshots
344: Community Forums
345: Home
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Home
354: Member Screenshots
355: Home
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: News Archive
361: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

The Panzer IV no. 14 (UniqueID 169) on that page is the tank we're talking about:

preservedtanks.com/Typ...p;Select=1

I took the identification of 'Ausf H' from Wheels and Tracks magazine, where it's covered in issue 30. However I should not have taken it at face value as I can see clearly now it is an Ausf J. I will make a correction on the website and in future editions of the Preserved German Tanks book.

- Doug_Kibbey
Can you give an angle of the rear that your looking specifically for (and example would be helpful)? I have 2-3 eye level views from various angles, or do you need a "top down view" of rear deck? Might not have that, but maybe something close.


The 'standard' Pz IV look, e.g. for Ausf G, H, etc. is a large horizontal exhaust silencer (muffler) on the rear plate, with a smaller silencer to the left of it:



A distinctive feature of the Ausf J was that this was removed, see for example the Pz IV Ausf J at Saumur:

preservedtanks.com/Det...PhotoID=89

In very late production models, a completely new exhaust system was used with two vertical silencers (similar to the Panther or Tiger), see for example the Pz IV Ausf J at Latrun:

preservedtanks.com/Det...otoID=1176

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

FINALLY, page two...I can post pics again. Laughing

Here is the bit you're looking for. Obvious bracketry for the silencer, but the bit itself is no longer present (I notice that the example at Saumur you cited lacks these brackets). Rough area on hull behind bracketry suggest to me that one was mounted at one time, mufflers are notorious for rusting out and quickly becoming unpresentable, besides, why would brackets be mounted if there was no intention to use them if simplification in manufacture was the point) Should come as no surprise, lots of bits are missing (what, for example, went in the tank that the curvy pieces to right supported? Whole tank is gone).

Also, though mismatched, the turret lacked the rear pistol ports I've seen in some versions. Also, closer inspection of the interior main gun pics seem to me to be lacking in something where gun enters mantlet. What is it that ain't there? (the diameter is not filling the mantlet opening)



*Edit to add....

Here's a interesting finding from a previous trip. Begs the question, is the reference to hull, turret, or both? Were some J's produced with silencers?....And when did fighting in Moldavia end?



...and since it's referenced on the plate, here's the engine, with one cam cover thoughtfully missing so we can appreciate the gear-driven SOHC (presumably with a gear train somewhat simpler than a Ford 427 "cammer").



Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:23 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Now that we're in a thread with piccie rights again, what's the significance of the number on this housing? And why, apart from needing to put together bits-and-pieces, would the track have solid and hollow center guides?



...and just for the heck of it, I didn't see any signs of the TC's azimuthal indicator doo-hickey. Probably lost to the parts bin of history...or wherever the muffler went.

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

I agree it looks like there's a bracket for the auxiliary engine silencer, however it's a different shape to the standard bracket, plus I don't see any connection/pipework going to it, which you can see for the missing main silencer next to it (it sat in the 'curvy pieces'). I'm still thinking it was an Ausf J without a silencer, and some other item has been stowed in its place.

For identification I haven't considered the turret at all, since we know it was added later. Regarding a gap around the gun going into the mantlet - could it just indicate the gun hasn't fully returned from the recoil position (i.e. it's jammed?). Regarding the hollow track centre guides my guess would be the same as reducing the number of return rollers - just another way of reducing the amount of metal required.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
BruceClark
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

Hi,
I agree that this is a Late J hull- the extended hull sides for tow hooks and the 3 return rollers are the clues. The straps on the rear do look like they are intended for the auxilliary muffler but there is no port in the rear hull- this should be visible or plated over. It also has late cast idler and late lower tow hook though this latter may have been added post war.

The casting number on the final drive housing is just that- a casting number referenced in some drawing from long ago. The mixture of track types is fairly common in late war vehicles and especially museum exhibits- you use the track at hand to outfit the exhibit. The hollow guide horns are earlier than the solid, by the way. Not sure whether this was to simplify the manufacturing process- as it seems counter intuitive to use more metal later in the war- or whether there was an issue with the hollow guidehorns collecting mud, ice, snow, etc.

The turret is another issue indeed....

Hope that helps
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Good stuff, guys. It seems fighting in Moldavia was going on well into 1944, see: "Jassy–Kishinev Offensive (August 1944)"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...1Dec44.jpg

I'll try to get some more pics up later, including main gun/battery and coax/bow MG shrouds from inside. Might be original, but damaged from careless visitors pulling or standing on (museum visitors do some strange things to artifacts, sometimes). They had a bent and squirrely look to them, especially the bow gun (which is more vulnerable to abuse by visitors).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
BruceClark
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

Doug and Trevor,

I went back to my photos of this vehicle taken prior to restoration.
( A buddy was a Nato military attache to former Warsaw pact countries and visited many of these former "off limits" collections.)

I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler.

Now if I could only figure out how to post photos here...

BTW Will Phelps in "Panzer IV Survivors: A to J" lists this vehicle as a late J hull with a late H turret.

Cheers! Bruce
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

- BruceClark
Doug and Trevor,

I went back to my photos of this vehicle taken prior to restoration.
( A buddy was a Nato military attache to former Warsaw pact countries and visited many of these former "off limits" collections.)

I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler.

Now if I could only figure out how to post photos here...

BTW Will Phelps in "Panzer IV Survivors: A to J" lists this vehicle as a late J hull with a late H turret.

Cheers! Bruce


Bruce,
Thanks, that's helpful! The tank might have been removed or fallen off when, as I notice in some of my closeups, the bracket welds have broken away from the hull at right bottom (I think it was).

D.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Yes - great picture, Bruce, that clears up any confusion.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Here's the likely explanation for why the tank is no longer fitted (whatever it was for....it wasn't apparently deemed worthy of repair)

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:31 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Not sure if this might help, by Garry Redmon just updated his 'Armor for the Ages' website. It includes the recently relocated Panzer Mk IV, that is receiving some attention.

Armor for the Ages : Panzer IV Project

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

- Dontos
Not sure if this might help, by Garry Redmon just updated his 'Armor for the Ages' website. It includes the recently relocated Panzer Mk IV, that is receiving some attention.

Armor for the Ages : Panzer IV Project

Don


Don,
Great pics, whether yours or Garry's. Not surprisingly, some aspects of the Bucharest vehicle are in better condition (forward drivers' and RO compartments, drive system up there)...the results of not having the weather exposure of the APG vehicle...and other aspects are just...incomplete (no turret basket, no internal stowage bins to speak of, etc.). APG vehicle is more original and complete, but exposure took it's toll. Interior of Bucharest vehicle was better protected (what there is of it), but is far less complete/original. White paint exceeds the rust, however.

Of course, you can't restore what ain't there, and that's probably not in the budget anyway. Between the old AFV Interiors file (may it remain forever in our hearts and hard drives), Garry's pics, and the Bucharest vehicle...I've gotten a new appreciation for what the inside is supposed to be like. I have to say that in many ways, it's easier to relate to later Patton-series vehicles in spatial use than U.S. vehicles of the same period (that is to say, more "modern" in scale and layout than the M4's). It's possible now to imagine what a "new" one should look like inside...and I haven't even seen the more pristine examples out there.

I was standing on the hull floor, however, and don't have any feel for what the fighting compartment height is like with turret basket under your feet.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Jens_O_Mehner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

- BruceClark
... I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler...


It is actually the muffler for the auxiliary engine which turned the turret and this makes it an early J at the latest, since the auxiliary engine was dropped during the J-production run.



Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Jens - I think you need to reread the discussion, as we started with that idea but decided it wasn't the case. If you're aware of that, then we'd be interested in your reasoning.

Dontos, the FK Panzer IV has exactly the muffler where we would expect it since it is a much earlier vehicle:



A great set of pictures though!

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Here is better view from AFTA website



Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum