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armyjunk2 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 1416

Thanks Trevor, More than sevearl of the signs are off.....

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

- TrevorLarkum

- Neil_Baumgardner

I want to say it had something to do with looking over the Suez Canal - I could be completely off, but I seem to remember something like that was used between '67 & '73...

Neil, are you thinking of this one?

Oh yeah, right, thats it...

Neil

binder001 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 363

1) Very NICE photos - sharp and well exposed. The watermark can be a bit annoying to people like me who like to download the photos, but I certainly know why it's there.

2) Some comments;

your first M47 shot (the OD one) is an M47 that was rebuilt with 105mm gun and diesel engine. Italy, Iran, and ??? had these

the second M47 (the sand colored one) looks pretty original

the M32VVSS looks like an original M32 - it has the grouser compartment vents at the rear.

the M32HVSS is more correctly an M32A1B1 (A1 for the HVSS modification, B1 is for the M4A1 hull). Very much like the one at the Patton Museum

The first M3 shown is a Grant, the second is a "Lee". I couldn't see the engine deck to see if it's an M3A-whatever. Latrun has/had an M31 recovery vehicle in good shape, that would give Israel quite a collection of M3 medium variants.

Thanks again for sharing.

Gary

armyjunk2 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 1416

Gary Thank you for the info, all the "watermark" is about I appreciate people asking me first to use the pics. everyone is welcome to them without the marks. I'm trying to post some of the larger vehicles collections over on the CDSG site. We have the experts here and its not me, I appreciate the help from everyone here Please feel free to add anything.

again anyone want pics without "watermarks' just ask, we will figure out how to get them to you...

Joe_D · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

Fantastic series of pictures,

If I ever get a chance I will have to go there.

Few questions,

All that odd bridging equipment, are those left over from '73 from when the Egyptians breached the defenses?

Picture 133, Stared at it for quite some time. Looks like a Centurion Turret on a modified Cent chassis. Uses what appears to be the US AVDS-1790 series engine. I at first thought it might have been some pilot vehicle for the Merkava program but the structure behind the drivers hatch doesn't allow a gun to depress. I'm stumped, what is it????

Thanks for sharing AJ2,

armyjunk2 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 1416

Joe, this will help Smile

I will try to get another pic from my buddy

[pic deleted

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

- Joe_D

Picture 133, Stared at it for quite some time. Looks like a Centurion Turret on a modified Cent chassis. Uses what appears to be the US AVDS-1790 series engine. I at first thought it might have been some pilot vehicle for the Merkava program but the structure behind the drivers hatch doesn't allow a gun to depress. I'm stumped, what is it????

Joe, you're spot on. I researched Latrun and wrote up all the tanks there for a book on Preserved Tanks in the Middle East. If you guys are interested, I'll make it available for download. Anyway, to quote from it, entry #57:

"This is a prototype of the Merkava, with a new hull on a heavily modified Centurion chassis. It was constructed after the Six Day War, under the direction of General Tal. It had its engine at the front, by positioning the driver at the back and driving the vehicle in reverse. It is fitted with a Centurion turret, apparently from a Mark 3, that is without its gun and is stripped of most external fittings."

My understanding is that it was just a concept trial vehicle, i.e. to try out the feasibility of having the turret behind the engine.

Joe_D · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

Thanks Trevor,

Guess it was an automotive trails type vehicle then, with no need for a gun. Turret was most likely necessary for weight.

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

I found #136 to be very interesting, if it is what I think it is...

Neil

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

I'm thinking you're thinking it's what was used to breach the Suez Canal?

Buq-Buq · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 04, 2006 Posts: 87

Yeah, I believe that #136 is the "Roller Bridge". This bridge that was designed prior to the 1973 war, and constructed in Sinai . . . vaguely along the route that would be tentatively used for a crossing of the Suez Canal. There was a prepared site, called "The Yard", just north of the Matzmed fortification (on the northern edge of the Great Bitter Lake, opposite Deversoir), where the ground and Suez Canal berm had been prepped for a major bridging operation. The 400 ton "Roller Bridge" was towed to the canal by a company of tanks. Some sources say that the towing unit was comprised of tanks that had been firepower-killed in battle, but seem to recall that I've recently read that this tank company was specially-designated and trained for the operation. As the bridge was being moved towards the canal, apparently it broke down, and the bridging operation was thrown into chaos (note that this is apart from the efforts of the Egyptian troops in the area!). For a while, the Israelis had to rely on the Gillois amphibians (#137) to ferry units across the canal.

I have often wondered how a bridge could 'break down', but seeing how this thing was constructed, it is easy to imagine now . . .

Mark

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

I am not 100%, but I don't remember italian M47s using a 105mm gun. Do you have any reference of this?

RKlaus · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 28, 2006 Posts: 12

Armyjunk,
Thanks for posting these. Great pictures!
I'm particularly grateful for #009. I had not known that any of the upgraded White Scout Cars had survived.

Robert

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

I do wish they'd make some effort to push that Sheridan M81 gun back into battery. Just stick a hydraulic jack in there and pump away if that's what it takes.

Curious about the M47 with the 105mm gun also. I know the Israelis were masters of upgrades and upgunning. Never seen this one before.

Joe_D · Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Latrun Armor Museum, Israel

That M47 105mm looks just like the BMY specials,

TACOM designed an upgrade kit for the M47 utilizing M60A1 components, much like the M48A3 program. Was for the export market. Called M47M. Bunch of them were converted for the Iranian Army. Pakistan also converted a bunch. Conversions were done in Iran for both. Gap between 5th and 6th road wheels was created so the AVDS-1790 oil pan would clear the torsion bars. Chrysler Espania also used the same kit for the Spanish Army, but I think they kept the 90mm.

Massimo,

I don't think the Italian Army converted any of theirs since they were replaced by M60's and Leo 1's IIRC. I do Know OTO Melera made a kit very similar if not the same as the BMY one and offered it for export.

This tank may be one given to Israel to demonstrate the kit. It doesn't look like Former Iranian or Pakistani.

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