±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 424
Total: 424
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: CPGlang
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: News Archive
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Statistics
15: Community Forums
16: CPGlang
17: CPGlang
18: Photo Gallery
19: CPGlang
20: Photo Gallery
21: Downloads
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Downloads
32: Community Forums
33: CPGlang
34: CPGlang
35: News Archive
36: News Archive
37: CPGlang
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: CPGlang
41: CPGlang
42: Photo Gallery
43: CPGlang
44: Home
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: CPGlang
48: Photo Gallery
49: Photo Gallery
50: CPGlang
51: Home
52: CPGlang
53: CPGlang
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Photo Gallery
59: Supporters
60: Community Forums
61: News
62: CPGlang
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: News Archive
69: CPGlang
70: CPGlang
71: CPGlang
72: Photo Gallery
73: News
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: CPGlang
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Downloads
90: Community Forums
91: CPGlang
92: Photo Gallery
93: CPGlang
94: Home
95: CPGlang
96: Community Forums
97: CPGlang
98: Member Screenshots
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Home
107: CPGlang
108: CPGlang
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: CPGlang
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Member Screenshots
117: Community Forums
118: Photo Gallery
119: Home
120: Downloads
121: News Archive
122: Community Forums
123: News
124: CPGlang
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Statistics
128: News
129: CPGlang
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: News
141: Home
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Member Screenshots
145: Photo Gallery
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Home
149: News
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: CPGlang
155: Downloads
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: News Archive
162: Community Forums
163: News Archive
164: Photo Gallery
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Member Screenshots
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: CPGlang
183: Community Forums
184: Photo Gallery
185: Home
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: CPGlang
189: CPGlang
190: News Archive
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: CPGlang
194: Community Forums
195: CPGlang
196: Home
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Photo Gallery
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Member Screenshots
209: Photo Gallery
210: Member Screenshots
211: CPGlang
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Member Screenshots
216: Home
217: Home
218: Member Screenshots
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: CPGlang
224: Member Screenshots
225: CPGlang
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Photo Gallery
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: CPGlang
234: Community Forums
235: Member Screenshots
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Member Screenshots
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Statistics
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: CPGlang
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: News Archive
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: CPGlang
259: Photo Gallery
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Photo Gallery
264: CPGlang
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: CPGlang
272: Member Screenshots
273: CPGlang
274: Home
275: News Archive
276: Photo Gallery
277: Member Screenshots
278: Community Forums
279: Member Screenshots
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: CPGlang
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Photo Gallery
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Member Screenshots
294: Community Forums
295: CPGlang
296: Photo Gallery
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Downloads
301: Downloads
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: CPGlang
306: News
307: Downloads
308: Home
309: News
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: CPGlang
313: Community Forums
314: Photo Gallery
315: Photo Gallery
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: CPGlang
320: Downloads
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Member Screenshots
327: Home
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: Home
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: News Archive
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: News Archive
340: Photo Gallery
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Home
344: Community Forums
345: Home
346: Community Forums
347: CPGlang
348: News
349: CPGlang
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Community Forums
355: CPGlang
356: CPGlang
357: CPGlang
358: Home
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Your Account
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Photo Gallery
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: CPGlang
373: Community Forums
374: Treasury
375: CPGlang
376: CPGlang
377: CPGlang
378: Home
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: CPGlang
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: CPGlang
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Home
390: CPGlang
391: Community Forums
392: Member Screenshots
393: CPGlang
394: Photo Gallery
395: Member Screenshots
396: Home
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Member Screenshots
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: CPGlang
406: CPGlang
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Member Screenshots
411: Home
412: Home
413: Home
414: Home
415: CPGlang
416: News Archive
417: Photo Gallery
418: News Archive
419: Community Forums
420: Downloads
421: Home
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:33 pm
Post subject: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I was reading "Gli Autoveicoli da Combattimento dell'Esercito Italiano Volume Terzo (1945-1955)", by Pignato and Cappellano. Talking about the M10, they say none survived in Italy, but the one at APG was donated by the italian Army in the '60. Can anyone confirm this?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:43 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

doen't remember speciffically what vehicles were involved, But Bob Smart has mentioned on his tours that some were returns from Italy, evident beacuse the barrels had been shortened to improve mobility in urban settings., So It's entirely possible. Hey Bob or Neil what's the 411?

_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

The shorter barrels sounds weird to me... Never heard of such a thing.

I know for sure quite a bunch of surviving M47s were returned to the USA. In Italy they were still in active service up to late '80 (a bunch went to Somalia too). But I am talking about something happened in the '60.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Yep, that's the story - at least what is claimed:



www.flickr.com/photos/...474291167/

According to the museum file it was acquired from the Italian Army in 1967.

The Ordnance Museum Guide CD says the following: "Used by US forces in Europe between 1944 and 1945. After the war, it was turned over to the Italian Army and used for several years. In 1967, the Italians donated this M10 to our museum where it remains today. The 3-inch gun on this, and other Italian M10s, were shortened by the Italian authorities and a counterweight collar was added to restore balance."

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Thanks Neil. This confirm what Pignato/Cappellano say, but I never heard about shortened guns and the book doesn't mention this either.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I just checked a dozen or so pictures showing M10s in italian service, none of them had that collar/counter-weight...

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

A little further info from the draft of a 1990s museum guidebook project that was never published:

"This vehicle reflects modifications implemented by the Italian forces, most notably to the 3" gun barrel. According to sources, the Italians never liked the long 3" gun tube since many Italian streets are narrow and have difficult corners, making maneuvers with such a vehicle difficult. As a result, the Italian authorities responsible shortened the barrel tube appropriately and added the collar as a counterweight to compensate for the shortened tube."

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

This really doesn't makes that much sense, alongside the M10s there were many M4 Firefly in service, the 17pdr tube is even longer.

Pignato and Cappellano are the most respected authors in this field, think the italian equivalent of putting together Thomas Jentz and Steve Zaloga, and they don't mention this in a 500 pages book dedicated to AFVs in the Italian Army 1945-55.

I'll keep a mental note and try to investigate this. Thanks again.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I had always assumed the fitting was a bore evacuator, certainly the barrel doesn't seem any shorter to me, and that's what I wrote in my original manuscript about APG, now online (#103):

preservedtanks.com/Loc...0&Select=4

It's not unique, though. I first saw an M10 like that on the back cover of After The Battle magazine no. 18 from 1977 (I've just found it again). It was displayed at the Italian War Museum at Monte Lungo along with an M4A3 Sherman.

Of course, it's possible it could turn out to be the same vehicle, but from the photo's it looks unlikely.

Edit: Feeling lucky, I just had a trawl through the ferreamole website. Here's Monte Lungo:

digilander.libero.it/p...elungo.htm

plus I've found another one, less obvious, at Cassino:

digilander.libero.it/p...assino.htm

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:01 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Here is a photo nearly identical in pose to the elungo picture listed above but taken from the other side of the vehicle. The collarless barrel appears about 15% to 20% longer to my eye


_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:24 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

This should make the comparison easier. I flipped and ghosted the elungo image over the other one and it appears there is a difference in length HTH


_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

When the M10 was sitting outside the warehouse at Aberdeen it was very near the M6 Heavy tank which also had a 3" gun. The gun on the M10 was noticeably shorter than the gun on the M6. The muzzle also appeared to have thicker tube walls which I attributed to having the barrel cut off further back from the muzzle (I never actually measured it) Yes I heard the same story about the Italians shortening the barrel but since my source is the same as the others that doesn't count as corroboration.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:01 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Here's something to consider:

Italaeri (an Italian model company) issued a kit of a Sherman with a similar device on its barrel but placed further back such that it appeared as if there was a step in the tube. Eventually a tank matching the exact configuration of the model was found in Italy. It was also learned that the tube had been severed completely as a de-militarizing action and a sleeve welded over the joint to provide a cosmetic cover.

That would be my guess here as there is no way you can cut a gun tube and rejoin it such that it would be functional, let alone safe to use.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:02 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

- piney
This should make the comparison easier. I flipped and ghosted the elungo image over the other one and it appears there is a difference in length HTH



Interesting - you may be right about the length, but it seems more obvious to me that if you have the photo's matched well the Monte Lungo barrel has a smaller calibre. That may be an optical illusion, though, as the APG one seems larger.


- Kurt_Laughlin
Italaeri (an Italian model company) issued a kit of a Sherman with a similar device on its barrel but placed further back such that it appeared as if there was a step in the tube. Eventually a tank matching the exact configuration of the model was found in Italy. It was also learned that the tube had been severed completely as a de-militarizing action and a sleeve welded over the joint to provide a cosmetic cover.


Kurt, are you thinking that on leaving service the Italian M10's had their barrels cut half way and the collar added? That could explain why they haven't been seen in service with the collar.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs


Last edited by TrevorLarkum on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

My biggest issue with the "Cut tube to negotiate narrow streets" statement is that it doesn't pass the common sense rule. I remember a few years back commenting on the Aberdeen M10 and was told this explanation.

(Edit) Also, a much more practical counterbalance would be at the end of the tube, requiring less material and much less work to attach, early M3 Mediums come to mind (Edit)

Why do that with one particular type vehicle and not with all these offending long tubes.

I also have an issue with ballistics. You just don't lop off a given amount on the end and than expect it to perform the same way in regards to accuracy and velocity. Keeping in mind that they used ballistic reticles and had no real FCS, It still would require a new set of firing tables for each type of round fired and then modification of the sights. These tubes would be unique and would require some one to sit down and test fire, crunch the numbers, and then confirm the results. I doubt all this would be deemed practical just so you could operate a vehicle in narrow streets, something US forces did with the same TD's when operating in urban areas.

Kurt's explanation makes much more sense. Looking at Piney's photo comparison, keeping in mind it's not an exact comparison, the barrel thickness appears greater on the "cut" example. Being it is not that much shorter than the standard tube, I have to wonder if it even is the same type or just any old tube they found. One sure fire way to know if the tube was cut and then spliced is to scope the barrel. There would be an obvious seam/cut where the two were joined. That is if it isn't plugged at both ends. That would put an end to the argument.

_________________
Joe_D


Last edited by Joe_D on Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum