±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 547
Total: 547
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: News Archive
06: Community Forums
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Member Screenshots
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Downloads
13: Home
14: Member Screenshots
15: Member Screenshots
16: Home
17: Downloads
18: Home
19: Home
20: Home
21: Downloads
22: Photo Gallery
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Member Screenshots
28: Community Forums
29: Statistics
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: News Archive
34: Home
35: Photo Gallery
36: Downloads
37: Community Forums
38: News Archive
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Member Screenshots
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Photo Gallery
46: Photo Gallery
47: Downloads
48: Home
49: Photo Gallery
50: Your Account
51: Community Forums
52: Downloads
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Home
57: Home
58: Home
59: Home
60: Home
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: News Archive
64: Home
65: News
66: Home
67: Member Screenshots
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Your Account
73: Downloads
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Downloads
85: Photo Gallery
86: Home
87: Home
88: Home
89: Home
90: Home
91: Home
92: Home
93: Home
94: Home
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Member Screenshots
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: News Archive
107: Member Screenshots
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Photo Gallery
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Member Screenshots
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Member Screenshots
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Photo Gallery
128: Home
129: Member Screenshots
130: Photo Gallery
131: Photo Gallery
132: Member Screenshots
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Member Screenshots
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Downloads
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Downloads
151: News
152: News Archive
153: Photo Gallery
154: Home
155: Photo Gallery
156: Member Screenshots
157: Downloads
158: Photo Gallery
159: Home
160: News Archive
161: News Archive
162: Photo Gallery
163: Member Screenshots
164: Member Screenshots
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: News Archive
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: News Archive
174: News Archive
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: News Archive
180: Home
181: Home
182: Search
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Photo Gallery
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Photo Gallery
190: Photo Gallery
191: Home
192: Home
193: Photo Gallery
194: Home
195: Home
196: Home
197: Home
198: Home
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Photo Gallery
203: News Archive
204: Member Screenshots
205: Photo Gallery
206: Photo Gallery
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Photo Gallery
211: Member Screenshots
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Member Screenshots
216: Home
217: Downloads
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Member Screenshots
223: Downloads
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Member Screenshots
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Home
236: Home
237: Home
238: Home
239: Home
240: Home
241: Home
242: Home
243: Home
244: Home
245: Home
246: Home
247: Home
248: Member Screenshots
249: Home
250: Community Forums
251: Home
252: Home
253: Home
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Statistics
266: Photo Gallery
267: Home
268: Home
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: News Archive
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Photo Gallery
282: Photo Gallery
283: Home
284: Photo Gallery
285: Photo Gallery
286: Photo Gallery
287: Photo Gallery
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Member Screenshots
293: Statistics
294: Community Forums
295: News Archive
296: Home
297: Home
298: Photo Gallery
299: News Archive
300: Community Forums
301: Photo Gallery
302: News Archive
303: Home
304: Statistics
305: Community Forums
306: Member Screenshots
307: Home
308: Downloads
309: Home
310: Home
311: Home
312: Your Account
313: Home
314: Home
315: Home
316: Home
317: Home
318: Home
319: Home
320: Home
321: Home
322: Photo Gallery
323: Home
324: Community Forums
325: Member Screenshots
326: Photo Gallery
327: Photo Gallery
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Your Account
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Member Screenshots
343: Member Screenshots
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Home
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Photo Gallery
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Home
355: Photo Gallery
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Home
359: Community Forums
360: Home
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Member Screenshots
366: Member Screenshots
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: News Archive
372: Photo Gallery
373: Community Forums
374: Downloads
375: Photo Gallery
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: Community Forums
383: Home
384: News Archive
385: Downloads
386: Community Forums
387: Member Screenshots
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Member Screenshots
394: Photo Gallery
395: Search
396: Statistics
397: Photo Gallery
398: Home
399: Photo Gallery
400: News Archive
401: Community Forums
402: Member Screenshots
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Home
411: Community Forums
412: News
413: News
414: Community Forums
415: News Archive
416: Member Screenshots
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Home
420: Member Screenshots
421: Community Forums
422: Your Account
423: Photo Gallery
424: Downloads
425: Community Forums
426: News Archive
427: Community Forums
428: News
429: Community Forums
430: Home
431: Home
432: Home
433: Photo Gallery
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Downloads
438: Member Screenshots
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Member Screenshots
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: News Archive
447: Home
448: Community Forums
449: Home
450: Home
451: Home
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: News Archive
455: Member Screenshots
456: News
457: Member Screenshots
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Member Screenshots
461: Home
462: Home
463: Member Screenshots
464: Community Forums
465: Home
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Member Screenshots
469: Community Forums
470: Photo Gallery
471: Home
472: Statistics
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Member Screenshots
476: Downloads
477: Member Screenshots
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Downloads
481: Home
482: Home
483: Home
484: Photo Gallery
485: Home
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Member Screenshots
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Member Screenshots
493: Community Forums
494: Member Screenshots
495: Downloads
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Member Screenshots
499: Photo Gallery
500: Home
501: Photo Gallery
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Member Screenshots
510: Downloads
511: Photo Gallery
512: News Archive
513: Home
514: Home
515: Community Forums
516: Photo Gallery
517: News Archive
518: Community Forums
519: Photo Gallery
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Member Screenshots
524: Photo Gallery
525: Community Forums
526: Photo Gallery
527: Photo Gallery
528: Photo Gallery
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Photo Gallery
532: Home
533: Member Screenshots
534: Community Forums
535: Downloads
536: Member Screenshots
537: Member Screenshots
538: Community Forums
539: News Archive
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Downloads
543: Photo Gallery
544: Member Screenshots
545: Community Forums
546: Member Screenshots
547: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:33 pm
Post subject: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I was reading "Gli Autoveicoli da Combattimento dell'Esercito Italiano Volume Terzo (1945-1955)", by Pignato and Cappellano. Talking about the M10, they say none survived in Italy, but the one at APG was donated by the italian Army in the '60. Can anyone confirm this?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:43 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

doen't remember speciffically what vehicles were involved, But Bob Smart has mentioned on his tours that some were returns from Italy, evident beacuse the barrels had been shortened to improve mobility in urban settings., So It's entirely possible. Hey Bob or Neil what's the 411?

_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

The shorter barrels sounds weird to me... Never heard of such a thing.

I know for sure quite a bunch of surviving M47s were returned to the USA. In Italy they were still in active service up to late '80 (a bunch went to Somalia too). But I am talking about something happened in the '60.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Yep, that's the story - at least what is claimed:



www.flickr.com/photos/...474291167/

According to the museum file it was acquired from the Italian Army in 1967.

The Ordnance Museum Guide CD says the following: "Used by US forces in Europe between 1944 and 1945. After the war, it was turned over to the Italian Army and used for several years. In 1967, the Italians donated this M10 to our museum where it remains today. The 3-inch gun on this, and other Italian M10s, were shortened by the Italian authorities and a counterweight collar was added to restore balance."

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Thanks Neil. This confirm what Pignato/Cappellano say, but I never heard about shortened guns and the book doesn't mention this either.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I just checked a dozen or so pictures showing M10s in italian service, none of them had that collar/counter-weight...

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

A little further info from the draft of a 1990s museum guidebook project that was never published:

"This vehicle reflects modifications implemented by the Italian forces, most notably to the 3" gun barrel. According to sources, the Italians never liked the long 3" gun tube since many Italian streets are narrow and have difficult corners, making maneuvers with such a vehicle difficult. As a result, the Italian authorities responsible shortened the barrel tube appropriately and added the collar as a counterweight to compensate for the shortened tube."

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

This really doesn't makes that much sense, alongside the M10s there were many M4 Firefly in service, the 17pdr tube is even longer.

Pignato and Cappellano are the most respected authors in this field, think the italian equivalent of putting together Thomas Jentz and Steve Zaloga, and they don't mention this in a 500 pages book dedicated to AFVs in the Italian Army 1945-55.

I'll keep a mental note and try to investigate this. Thanks again.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I had always assumed the fitting was a bore evacuator, certainly the barrel doesn't seem any shorter to me, and that's what I wrote in my original manuscript about APG, now online (#103):

preservedtanks.com/Loc...0&Select=4

It's not unique, though. I first saw an M10 like that on the back cover of After The Battle magazine no. 18 from 1977 (I've just found it again). It was displayed at the Italian War Museum at Monte Lungo along with an M4A3 Sherman.

Of course, it's possible it could turn out to be the same vehicle, but from the photo's it looks unlikely.

Edit: Feeling lucky, I just had a trawl through the ferreamole website. Here's Monte Lungo:

digilander.libero.it/p...elungo.htm

plus I've found another one, less obvious, at Cassino:

digilander.libero.it/p...assino.htm

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:01 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Here is a photo nearly identical in pose to the elungo picture listed above but taken from the other side of the vehicle. The collarless barrel appears about 15% to 20% longer to my eye


_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:24 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

This should make the comparison easier. I flipped and ghosted the elungo image over the other one and it appears there is a difference in length HTH


_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

When the M10 was sitting outside the warehouse at Aberdeen it was very near the M6 Heavy tank which also had a 3" gun. The gun on the M10 was noticeably shorter than the gun on the M6. The muzzle also appeared to have thicker tube walls which I attributed to having the barrel cut off further back from the muzzle (I never actually measured it) Yes I heard the same story about the Italians shortening the barrel but since my source is the same as the others that doesn't count as corroboration.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:01 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Here's something to consider:

Italaeri (an Italian model company) issued a kit of a Sherman with a similar device on its barrel but placed further back such that it appeared as if there was a step in the tube. Eventually a tank matching the exact configuration of the model was found in Italy. It was also learned that the tube had been severed completely as a de-militarizing action and a sleeve welded over the joint to provide a cosmetic cover.

That would be my guess here as there is no way you can cut a gun tube and rejoin it such that it would be functional, let alone safe to use.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:02 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

- piney
This should make the comparison easier. I flipped and ghosted the elungo image over the other one and it appears there is a difference in length HTH



Interesting - you may be right about the length, but it seems more obvious to me that if you have the photo's matched well the Monte Lungo barrel has a smaller calibre. That may be an optical illusion, though, as the APG one seems larger.


- Kurt_Laughlin
Italaeri (an Italian model company) issued a kit of a Sherman with a similar device on its barrel but placed further back such that it appeared as if there was a step in the tube. Eventually a tank matching the exact configuration of the model was found in Italy. It was also learned that the tube had been severed completely as a de-militarizing action and a sleeve welded over the joint to provide a cosmetic cover.


Kurt, are you thinking that on leaving service the Italian M10's had their barrels cut half way and the collar added? That could explain why they haven't been seen in service with the collar.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs


Last edited by TrevorLarkum on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2068
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

My biggest issue with the "Cut tube to negotiate narrow streets" statement is that it doesn't pass the common sense rule. I remember a few years back commenting on the Aberdeen M10 and was told this explanation.

(Edit) Also, a much more practical counterbalance would be at the end of the tube, requiring less material and much less work to attach, early M3 Mediums come to mind (Edit)

Why do that with one particular type vehicle and not with all these offending long tubes.

I also have an issue with ballistics. You just don't lop off a given amount on the end and than expect it to perform the same way in regards to accuracy and velocity. Keeping in mind that they used ballistic reticles and had no real FCS, It still would require a new set of firing tables for each type of round fired and then modification of the sights. These tubes would be unique and would require some one to sit down and test fire, crunch the numbers, and then confirm the results. I doubt all this would be deemed practical just so you could operate a vehicle in narrow streets, something US forces did with the same TD's when operating in urban areas.

Kurt's explanation makes much more sense. Looking at Piney's photo comparison, keeping in mind it's not an exact comparison, the barrel thickness appears greater on the "cut" example. Being it is not that much shorter than the standard tube, I have to wonder if it even is the same type or just any old tube they found. One sure fire way to know if the tube was cut and then spliced is to scope the barrel. There would be an obvious seam/cut where the two were joined. That is if it isn't plugged at both ends. That would put an end to the argument.

_________________
Joe_D


Last edited by Joe_D on Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum