±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 332
Total: 332
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: News
10: Community Forums
11: News Archive
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Home
18: Home
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Home
27: News
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Home
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Your Account
37: Community Forums
38: Home
39: Member Screenshots
40: Home
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: News Archive
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Home
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Home
76: Home
77: Photo Gallery
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: News Archive
89: Community Forums
90: News Archive
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Photo Gallery
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Downloads
106: Community Forums
107: Your Account
108: Downloads
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Photo Gallery
115: Downloads
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Home
123: Member Screenshots
124: News Archive
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Home
133: News
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Home
137: Home
138: Home
139: Home
140: Home
141: Home
142: Home
143: Your Account
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Photo Gallery
149: Home
150: Home
151: Home
152: Home
153: Home
154: News Archive
155: Home
156: Downloads
157: Home
158: Home
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Home
163: Home
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Home
170: Home
171: Home
172: Home
173: Home
174: Home
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Home
181: Home
182: Home
183: Your Account
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Home
188: Home
189: Home
190: Home
191: Your Account
192: Home
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Home
197: Home
198: Home
199: Home
200: Home
201: Home
202: Home
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Your Account
206: Home
207: Home
208: Home
209: Photo Gallery
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Photo Gallery
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Member Screenshots
220: Home
221: Home
222: Home
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Member Screenshots
228: Home
229: Home
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Your Account
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Home
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Home
249: Home
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Downloads
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Home
262: Home
263: Home
264: Photo Gallery
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Home
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Home
279: Home
280: Home
281: Home
282: Home
283: Home
284: News
285: Home
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Downloads
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Home
292: Home
293: Home
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Home
320: Community Forums
321: Home
322: Home
323: Home
324: Photo Gallery
325: Home
326: Community Forums
327: Home
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Home
331: Home
332: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Panther in Thun, correct version?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:31 pm
Post subject: Panther in Thun, correct version?

I think we already figured out this tank can be either an ausf. D or
an early ausf. A. It could even be that hull and turrets were assembled from different wrecks.
This page show some pictures of the turret that aren't easily available, and could be handy. The guy managed to climb on the tank Laughing
scouseontoast.blogspot...rland.html

Looking at Panzer Tracts 5-2, page 5-75, turret front casting and plate interlocks should identify it as aus.f A.

Any opinion?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Yes, the fake mantlet is pretty much self-evident from the pictures. I also assumed it's a well know fact. But you are right, it's better to state it clearly.

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
I was looking at Jentz's books because I assumed they are the most up to date on the topic, and Doyle's drawings are helpful. Are you looking at other references?

Again, considering the state of other panzers delivered to Switzerland from France together with the Panther (Stug III and Pz IV in Thun), we can't assume hull and turret originally belonged to the same vehicle. So, in my opinion, it could be useful to analyze them separately.

Thanks

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Massimo_Foti

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
Massimo


Conversation with the curator about three years ago and IIRC the cupola & back of turret.

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Do the curator had access to things we can't see, like internal data plates or the like?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Michel_Krauss
According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel


the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website Wink

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:04 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website


your past is haunting you Wink

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- JimWeb
Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...


Well.... an Ausf. D2 is the same as an Ausf. D, the D1/D2 distinction being used only briefly as the earliest Panthers produced had their steering drive changed from a clutch-brake system to a geared system. Smile

As the Ausf. A was simply an Ausf. D with a new turret, the only means of identifying it as one or the other would be the hull serial number.

The turret is clearly an Ausf. A turret, but since there are no pistol ports in the side turret armour, it would suggest that the turret was made in December 1943 or later. The fact that there is a pistol port in the rear turret armour would suggest that the turret is a very early Ausf. A turret, built from plates made just around the time that the pistol ports were omitted.
Since the tank does not have a hole in the roof for a Nahverteidigungswaffe, it was probably made before March 1944.

If you look at the hull, it obviously has the forward-looking periscope for the hull-gunner but no ballmount for the hull-MG. This probably means that the hull was made mid-december 1943 or earlier. The left exhaust is the single-pipe typewhich went out of production in January 1944, which is consistent with a later 1943 production date.

The roadwheels all appear to be the 24-bolt type introduced in August 1943 and for what it is worth, the tires are marked 8-43, which could mean a production date in August 1943.

While nothing conclusive can be said about this, it appears that the turret and hull (including the wheels) are produced in the same interval of 4 months in 1943 (September-December 1943) which saw the production of 37 Ausf. D and 863 Ausf. A. It seems to likely to me, that turret and hull belongs together. If not, then the museum or a German repair shop should at some point in time have had exactly these parts (August 1943 roadwheels, late-1943 turret and a pre-december 1943 hull) available at the same time and matched them to this almost perfect early Ausf. A configuration. Not very likely, but of course possible.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

The more I look at images of this vehicle the more I am convinced its a mix'n'match whether during Wehrmacht service or after is open to debate I suspect....

I'll have to try to fit in another visit I suspect!

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- the_shadock
what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O


Then we can keep debating this until the end of time Wink

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum