±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 672
Total: 672
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Downloads
04: Downloads
05: Tell a Friend
06: Your Account
07: Community Forums
08: Member Screenshots
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Home
12: Home
13: Home
14: Photo Gallery
15: Home
16: Photo Gallery
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Member Screenshots
20: Downloads
21: Home
22: Photo Gallery
23: Statistics
24: Community Forums
25: Member Screenshots
26: Member Screenshots
27: Member Screenshots
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Home
32: Member Screenshots
33: Home
34: Member Screenshots
35: Photo Gallery
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: News Archive
40: Your Account
41: News Archive
42: Downloads
43: Home
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Home
51: Community Forums
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Statistics
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Member Screenshots
60: Community Forums
61: Statistics
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Home
70: Member Screenshots
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Downloads
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Member Screenshots
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Member Screenshots
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Home
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Downloads
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Home
126: Statistics
127: Community Forums
128: Downloads
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Home
139: Home
140: Home
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Member Screenshots
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Downloads
150: Photo Gallery
151: Downloads
152: Home
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Home
157: Home
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Home
165: Downloads
166: Photo Gallery
167: Downloads
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Downloads
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Member Screenshots
181: Community Forums
182: Downloads
183: Community Forums
184: Member Screenshots
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Your Account
188: Member Screenshots
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Photo Gallery
193: Member Screenshots
194: Member Screenshots
195: Photo Gallery
196: Photo Gallery
197: Member Screenshots
198: Home
199: Member Screenshots
200: Home
201: Photo Gallery
202: Member Screenshots
203: Photo Gallery
204: Downloads
205: Home
206: Member Screenshots
207: Photo Gallery
208: Home
209: Home
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: News Archive
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Statistics
216: Home
217: Home
218: Home
219: Photo Gallery
220: News Archive
221: Member Screenshots
222: Community Forums
223: Photo Gallery
224: Downloads
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Photo Gallery
230: Photo Gallery
231: Downloads
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Photo Gallery
236: Home
237: Member Screenshots
238: Community Forums
239: Photo Gallery
240: Community Forums
241: Photo Gallery
242: Downloads
243: News Archive
244: Downloads
245: Home
246: Downloads
247: Home
248: Your Account
249: Photo Gallery
250: Member Screenshots
251: Home
252: Home
253: Member Screenshots
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Statistics
257: Photo Gallery
258: Member Screenshots
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Member Screenshots
263: News
264: Photo Gallery
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Photo Gallery
268: Downloads
269: Photo Gallery
270: Photo Gallery
271: Home
272: News Archive
273: Member Screenshots
274: Member Screenshots
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Member Screenshots
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Downloads
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Photo Gallery
286: Downloads
287: Member Screenshots
288: Home
289: Member Screenshots
290: Home
291: Home
292: News Archive
293: Member Screenshots
294: Member Screenshots
295: Home
296: Member Screenshots
297: Photo Gallery
298: Photo Gallery
299: Home
300: Member Screenshots
301: Home
302: Photo Gallery
303: Downloads
304: Downloads
305: Photo Gallery
306: Home
307: Home
308: Home
309: Member Screenshots
310: Photo Gallery
311: Photo Gallery
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Photo Gallery
315: Home
316: Photo Gallery
317: Photo Gallery
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Downloads
323: Photo Gallery
324: Member Screenshots
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Downloads
330: Home
331: Photo Gallery
332: Photo Gallery
333: Photo Gallery
334: Photo Gallery
335: Photo Gallery
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Member Screenshots
339: Statistics
340: Downloads
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Downloads
344: Photo Gallery
345: Downloads
346: Member Screenshots
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Home
351: Downloads
352: Photo Gallery
353: Downloads
354: Community Forums
355: Member Screenshots
356: Member Screenshots
357: Member Screenshots
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Home
361: Member Screenshots
362: Photo Gallery
363: Photo Gallery
364: Community Forums
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Photo Gallery
371: Home
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Downloads
375: Photo Gallery
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Downloads
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Statistics
385: Home
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Home
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Member Screenshots
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Downloads
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Member Screenshots
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Downloads
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Photo Gallery
424: Downloads
425: Home
426: Photo Gallery
427: Member Screenshots
428: Home
429: Home
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Member Screenshots
440: Home
441: Community Forums
442: News Archive
443: Downloads
444: Photo Gallery
445: Photo Gallery
446: Community Forums
447: Downloads
448: Home
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Home
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Your Account
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Home
460: Home
461: Photo Gallery
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Member Screenshots
467: Home
468: Home
469: Photo Gallery
470: Home
471: Home
472: Community Forums
473: Home
474: Member Screenshots
475: Downloads
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Your Account
480: Home
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Home
484: Home
485: Photo Gallery
486: Community Forums
487: Home
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Home
491: Home
492: Home
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Member Screenshots
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: Home
500: Photo Gallery
501: Photo Gallery
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Home
506: Home
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Home
511: Community Forums
512: Home
513: Member Screenshots
514: Member Screenshots
515: Home
516: Home
517: Community Forums
518: Home
519: Home
520: Photo Gallery
521: Community Forums
522: Member Screenshots
523: Downloads
524: News Archive
525: Home
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Home
529: Community Forums
530: Downloads
531: Member Screenshots
532: Home
533: Home
534: Community Forums
535: Supporters
536: Home
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Downloads
541: Member Screenshots
542: Photo Gallery
543: Photo Gallery
544: Photo Gallery
545: Photo Gallery
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Member Screenshots
549: Home
550: Member Screenshots
551: Community Forums
552: Downloads
553: Community Forums
554: Photo Gallery
555: Photo Gallery
556: Member Screenshots
557: Downloads
558: Member Screenshots
559: Member Screenshots
560: Downloads
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Community Forums
565: Photo Gallery
566: Home
567: Member Screenshots
568: Photo Gallery
569: Photo Gallery
570: Photo Gallery
571: Member Screenshots
572: Home
573: Member Screenshots
574: Member Screenshots
575: Downloads
576: Community Forums
577: Home
578: Member Screenshots
579: Home
580: Statistics
581: Home
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Statistics
585: News Archive
586: Photo Gallery
587: Member Screenshots
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Home
591: Member Screenshots
592: Downloads
593: Photo Gallery
594: Community Forums
595: Downloads
596: Statistics
597: Member Screenshots
598: Community Forums
599: Member Screenshots
600: Home
601: Member Screenshots
602: Community Forums
603: Search
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Home
608: Community Forums
609: Member Screenshots
610: Photo Gallery
611: Photo Gallery
612: Photo Gallery
613: Photo Gallery
614: Member Screenshots
615: News Archive
616: Community Forums
617: Home
618: Home
619: Member Screenshots
620: Photo Gallery
621: Home
622: Member Screenshots
623: Photo Gallery
624: Community Forums
625: Home
626: Home
627: Home
628: Community Forums
629: Home
630: Member Screenshots
631: Community Forums
632: Downloads
633: Member Screenshots
634: Home
635: Photo Gallery
636: News
637: Home
638: Downloads
639: Home
640: Home
641: Downloads
642: Photo Gallery
643: Statistics
644: Photo Gallery
645: Downloads
646: Community Forums
647: Photo Gallery
648: Community Forums
649: Photo Gallery
650: Home
651: Home
652: Photo Gallery
653: Home
654: Downloads
655: Home
656: Member Screenshots
657: Photo Gallery
658: News
659: Statistics
660: Photo Gallery
661: Photo Gallery
662: Downloads
663: Member Screenshots
664: Photo Gallery
665: Downloads
666: Photo Gallery
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Member Screenshots
671: Member Screenshots
672: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Panther in Thun, correct version?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:31 pm
Post subject: Panther in Thun, correct version?

I think we already figured out this tank can be either an ausf. D or
an early ausf. A. It could even be that hull and turrets were assembled from different wrecks.
This page show some pictures of the turret that aren't easily available, and could be handy. The guy managed to climb on the tank Laughing
scouseontoast.blogspot...rland.html

Looking at Panzer Tracts 5-2, page 5-75, turret front casting and plate interlocks should identify it as aus.f A.

Any opinion?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Yes, the fake mantlet is pretty much self-evident from the pictures. I also assumed it's a well know fact. But you are right, it's better to state it clearly.

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
I was looking at Jentz's books because I assumed they are the most up to date on the topic, and Doyle's drawings are helpful. Are you looking at other references?

Again, considering the state of other panzers delivered to Switzerland from France together with the Panther (Stug III and Pz IV in Thun), we can't assume hull and turret originally belonged to the same vehicle. So, in my opinion, it could be useful to analyze them separately.

Thanks

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Massimo_Foti

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
Massimo


Conversation with the curator about three years ago and IIRC the cupola & back of turret.

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Do the curator had access to things we can't see, like internal data plates or the like?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Michel_Krauss
According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel


the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website Wink

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:04 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website


your past is haunting you Wink

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- JimWeb
Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...


Well.... an Ausf. D2 is the same as an Ausf. D, the D1/D2 distinction being used only briefly as the earliest Panthers produced had their steering drive changed from a clutch-brake system to a geared system. Smile

As the Ausf. A was simply an Ausf. D with a new turret, the only means of identifying it as one or the other would be the hull serial number.

The turret is clearly an Ausf. A turret, but since there are no pistol ports in the side turret armour, it would suggest that the turret was made in December 1943 or later. The fact that there is a pistol port in the rear turret armour would suggest that the turret is a very early Ausf. A turret, built from plates made just around the time that the pistol ports were omitted.
Since the tank does not have a hole in the roof for a Nahverteidigungswaffe, it was probably made before March 1944.

If you look at the hull, it obviously has the forward-looking periscope for the hull-gunner but no ballmount for the hull-MG. This probably means that the hull was made mid-december 1943 or earlier. The left exhaust is the single-pipe typewhich went out of production in January 1944, which is consistent with a later 1943 production date.

The roadwheels all appear to be the 24-bolt type introduced in August 1943 and for what it is worth, the tires are marked 8-43, which could mean a production date in August 1943.

While nothing conclusive can be said about this, it appears that the turret and hull (including the wheels) are produced in the same interval of 4 months in 1943 (September-December 1943) which saw the production of 37 Ausf. D and 863 Ausf. A. It seems to likely to me, that turret and hull belongs together. If not, then the museum or a German repair shop should at some point in time have had exactly these parts (August 1943 roadwheels, late-1943 turret and a pre-december 1943 hull) available at the same time and matched them to this almost perfect early Ausf. A configuration. Not very likely, but of course possible.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

The more I look at images of this vehicle the more I am convinced its a mix'n'match whether during Wehrmacht service or after is open to debate I suspect....

I'll have to try to fit in another visit I suspect!

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- the_shadock
what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O


Then we can keep debating this until the end of time Wink

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum