±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 354
Total: 354
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: News Archive
07: News Archive
08: Home
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Home
12: News
13: Home
14: News Archive
15: News Archive
16: Home
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Home
21: Home
22: Home
23: Home
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: News Archive
27: Community Forums
28: Home
29: News Archive
30: Home
31: Photo Gallery
32: Home
33: Home
34: Home
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Home
39: Home
40: Member Screenshots
41: Photo Gallery
42: Statistics
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Member Screenshots
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Home
49: Downloads
50: Home
51: Home
52: Home
53: Home
54: Home
55: Home
56: Photo Gallery
57: Member Screenshots
58: Home
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Photo Gallery
64: Home
65: Home
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Home
71: Photo Gallery
72: Home
73: Home
74: Home
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Home
78: Home
79: Home
80: Home
81: Home
82: Member Screenshots
83: Community Forums
84: Member Screenshots
85: Home
86: Home
87: Photo Gallery
88: Home
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Downloads
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Member Screenshots
101: Member Screenshots
102: Member Screenshots
103: Member Screenshots
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Statistics
107: Home
108: Home
109: Photo Gallery
110: Home
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Home
115: Photo Gallery
116: Home
117: Home
118: Home
119: Home
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Home
125: Home
126: Home
127: Photo Gallery
128: Home
129: Member Screenshots
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Home
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Downloads
136: Home
137: Home
138: Home
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Downloads
142: Home
143: Home
144: Home
145: Home
146: Photo Gallery
147: Home
148: Home
149: Downloads
150: Home
151: Home
152: Home
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Home
157: Home
158: Home
159: Home
160: Photo Gallery
161: Member Screenshots
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Member Screenshots
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: News Archive
170: Home
171: Home
172: Home
173: Home
174: Home
175: Home
176: Home
177: Home
178: Home
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Member Screenshots
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Member Screenshots
187: Home
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: News Archive
193: Photo Gallery
194: Home
195: Home
196: Home
197: Home
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Home
202: Home
203: Home
204: Home
205: Home
206: Home
207: Photo Gallery
208: Home
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Photo Gallery
212: Home
213: Home
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Member Screenshots
218: Home
219: Home
220: Home
221: Home
222: Member Screenshots
223: Photo Gallery
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Home
227: Home
228: Home
229: Home
230: Home
231: Home
232: Home
233: Home
234: Downloads
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Member Screenshots
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Home
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Photo Gallery
258: Home
259: News Archive
260: Home
261: News Archive
262: Home
263: News Archive
264: Home
265: Home
266: Home
267: Home
268: Home
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: Home
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Your Account
280: Home
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Home
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Home
293: Photo Gallery
294: Photo Gallery
295: Home
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Downloads
306: Member Screenshots
307: Member Screenshots
308: Member Screenshots
309: Home
310: Statistics
311: Home
312: Home
313: Home
314: Home
315: Home
316: Community Forums
317: Home
318: Home
319: Home
320: Home
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Home
324: Home
325: Home
326: Home
327: Home
328: Home
329: News Archive
330: Home
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Home
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Photo Gallery
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Downloads
345: Home
346: Home
347: Home
348: Home
349: Home
350: Home
351: Photo Gallery
352: Home
353: Home
354: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Panther in Thun, correct version?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:31 pm
Post subject: Panther in Thun, correct version?

I think we already figured out this tank can be either an ausf. D or
an early ausf. A. It could even be that hull and turrets were assembled from different wrecks.
This page show some pictures of the turret that aren't easily available, and could be handy. The guy managed to climb on the tank Laughing
scouseontoast.blogspot...rland.html

Looking at Panzer Tracts 5-2, page 5-75, turret front casting and plate interlocks should identify it as aus.f A.

Any opinion?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Yes, the fake mantlet is pretty much self-evident from the pictures. I also assumed it's a well know fact. But you are right, it's better to state it clearly.

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
I was looking at Jentz's books because I assumed they are the most up to date on the topic, and Doyle's drawings are helpful. Are you looking at other references?

Again, considering the state of other panzers delivered to Switzerland from France together with the Panther (Stug III and Pz IV in Thun), we can't assume hull and turret originally belonged to the same vehicle. So, in my opinion, it could be useful to analyze them separately.

Thanks

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Massimo_Foti

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
Massimo


Conversation with the curator about three years ago and IIRC the cupola & back of turret.

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Do the curator had access to things we can't see, like internal data plates or the like?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Michel_Krauss
According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel


the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website Wink

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:04 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website


your past is haunting you Wink

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- JimWeb
Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...


Well.... an Ausf. D2 is the same as an Ausf. D, the D1/D2 distinction being used only briefly as the earliest Panthers produced had their steering drive changed from a clutch-brake system to a geared system. Smile

As the Ausf. A was simply an Ausf. D with a new turret, the only means of identifying it as one or the other would be the hull serial number.

The turret is clearly an Ausf. A turret, but since there are no pistol ports in the side turret armour, it would suggest that the turret was made in December 1943 or later. The fact that there is a pistol port in the rear turret armour would suggest that the turret is a very early Ausf. A turret, built from plates made just around the time that the pistol ports were omitted.
Since the tank does not have a hole in the roof for a Nahverteidigungswaffe, it was probably made before March 1944.

If you look at the hull, it obviously has the forward-looking periscope for the hull-gunner but no ballmount for the hull-MG. This probably means that the hull was made mid-december 1943 or earlier. The left exhaust is the single-pipe typewhich went out of production in January 1944, which is consistent with a later 1943 production date.

The roadwheels all appear to be the 24-bolt type introduced in August 1943 and for what it is worth, the tires are marked 8-43, which could mean a production date in August 1943.

While nothing conclusive can be said about this, it appears that the turret and hull (including the wheels) are produced in the same interval of 4 months in 1943 (September-December 1943) which saw the production of 37 Ausf. D and 863 Ausf. A. It seems to likely to me, that turret and hull belongs together. If not, then the museum or a German repair shop should at some point in time have had exactly these parts (August 1943 roadwheels, late-1943 turret and a pre-december 1943 hull) available at the same time and matched them to this almost perfect early Ausf. A configuration. Not very likely, but of course possible.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

The more I look at images of this vehicle the more I am convinced its a mix'n'match whether during Wehrmacht service or after is open to debate I suspect....

I'll have to try to fit in another visit I suspect!

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- the_shadock
what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O


Then we can keep debating this until the end of time Wink

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum