±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 323
Total: 323
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: News
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: News Archive
11: Community Forums
12: Home
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: News Archive
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Home
20: Home
21: Photo Gallery
22: Home
23: Home
24: Home
25: Home
26: Home
27: Home
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Member Screenshots
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Home
39: Home
40: Home
41: Photo Gallery
42: News Archive
43: Downloads
44: Community Forums
45: News
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Home
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Downloads
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Downloads
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Statistics
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Home
78: Home
79: Downloads
80: Home
81: Home
82: Home
83: Home
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Statistics
88: Member Screenshots
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Home
93: Home
94: Home
95: Community Forums
96: Member Screenshots
97: Home
98: Downloads
99: Home
100: Photo Gallery
101: Home
102: Contact
103: Photo Gallery
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Member Screenshots
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Home
110: Home
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: News Archive
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Member Screenshots
117: Home
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Photo Gallery
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Member Screenshots
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Downloads
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Home
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Member Screenshots
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Home
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Home
176: Home
177: Statistics
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Home
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Home
184: Home
185: Home
186: Home
187: Home
188: Home
189: Downloads
190: Home
191: Home
192: Home
193: Community Forums
194: Home
195: Downloads
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Home
199: Home
200: Home
201: Home
202: Home
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Home
207: Home
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: Home
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Home
219: Community Forums
220: Member Screenshots
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Home
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Downloads
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Community Forums
234: Downloads
235: Home
236: Home
237: News Archive
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Your Account
249: Home
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Home
254: Home
255: Home
256: Home
257: Downloads
258: Community Forums
259: Home
260: Photo Gallery
261: Home
262: Home
263: Photo Gallery
264: Home
265: Statistics
266: Community Forums
267: Statistics
268: Photo Gallery
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Member Screenshots
272: Your Account
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Statistics
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Home
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Home
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Downloads
296: Community Forums
297: Downloads
298: Photo Gallery
299: Community Forums
300: Downloads
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Photo Gallery
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Home
309: Home
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Downloads
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: Photo Gallery
317: Community Forums
318: Member Screenshots
319: Downloads
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Centi-Bunker
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:13 pm
Post subject: Centi-Bunker

The topic of bunkers build by the Swiss army reusing Centurion's turrets isn't documented too well. So I guess people may like to take a look at this photo-gallery, even if text is in german:
www.unterirdischeschwe...86834.html

Additional info here:
festung-oberland.ch/Wa...unker.html

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Thanks Massimo, an interesting subject.

Somewhere I have the number of ex-Netherlands Army Centurion tanks which were supplied to Austria. These were supplied under MDAP, and after replacement by Leopards they were handed back on paper to the USA, who of course had no idea what to do with them. Austria had a need for tank turrets for their bunkers, and at the same time Israel was looking for Centurion automotive spares. It was a Dutch officer who came up with the plan to send the turrets to Austria and the chassis to Israel. Recycling avant la lettre. . .

H.
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Massimo

how many of these bunkers where there in Switzerland?

They where using an special modified tank chassis to place the Centurion turrets
So there had to be several more of these "Centurion turret bunkers"

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

how many of these bunkers where there in Switzerland?


I think the answer should be here

Geplant waren ursprünglich über 100 solcher Sperranlagen, dieses Zahl wurde relativ rasch auf 50 reduziert. Nach dem Fall der Berliner Mauer plante man noch für 28 Anlagen (700'000 Franken pro Monobloc), schliesslich wurden 20 Kriegsanlagen gebaut (zusätzlich 3 im Ausbildungszentrum Weissenburg) Die Baukosten pro Centi-Bunker betrugen rund 400'000 Franken. Mit der Armee XXI wurden die Anlagen ausgemustert, seit dem 1. Januar 2003 sind diese entklassifiziert.


I tried with Google Translate, but I am not sure it got it 100% right Laughing

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

There are some nice parts in the google tranlation Mr. Green

This is my version

Geplant waren ursprünglich über 100 solcher Sperranlagen .....etc, etc..... 2003 sind diese entklassifiziert.


The original plan was to build 100 similar obstacles, however this number was quickly reduced to 50
After the fall the Berlin wall, the plan was changed to build only 28 facilities (700.000 Swiss franc's ~ $664.000)
Finally only 20 such obstacles where build, besides these also 3 where build for the training facility at Weissenburg.
The building cost for each Centurion-bunker where 400.00 Swiss franc's (~$380.000)
With the Armee XXI (Swiss army reform 21st century) the facilities became obselete and from 1-jan 2003 they are no longer military objects


Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Finally only 20 such obstacles where build, besides these also 3 where build for the training facility at Weissenburg.

I wonder if they are counting "turrets" or "installations" that could potentially use multiple turrets?

There is a Centi-bunker 30min drive away from my home, handled by Forte Mondascia's guys. But I have been unable to visit it so far. It's open only upon request for groups of at least 12 people. I hope to get there one of these days.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Hi Massimo,

I have been reading the info at the Festung Oberland website and there is some very interresting info there

First of all the text you have copied and I have translated is an mix of rigth and wrong

The start of building solid defence works started just before WW2
At the start of WW2 the Swiss army studied the German Blitzkrieg and started an major construction program for defence works

To be short, Switzerland was turned into one big fortress Surprised

There where first line defence works created all along the Swiss border
Besides defence works at the border there where also major defence works (festungen) created in the centre of Switzerland, called the Reduit

An typical major defence work consisted of an tank turret, an bunker with artillery and various other bunker types
They where all connected with each other
festung-oberland.ch/Sc...ge17_1.jpg

This main line of defence was in the southern part of Switzerland, against the border with Italy (see picture)
festung-oberland.ch/Sc...ge16_1.jpg

The major part of the army would be inside this main line of defence
It was calculated that the construction had cost 670 million Swiss franc's (in 1945, today it would be 8 billion franc)

After the war the army was reduced in size and there was little modification done on the various defence works

This changed at the start of the Cold War
In 1961 started an major modernization programm
All the defence works where supplied with new modern weapons systems and the facilities where modified to withstand new threads

Over the years the various defence works where constantly modernized (so Centurion turrets appeared in time)

Around 1982-1985 an new style of defence work was created
This style is called Monoblock and consists of an large caliber weapon inside an self supporting bunker
Usually there are two at an defence location
One is supplied with an 155mm canon (called Bison) and the other is supplied with an 120mm mortar
festung-oberland.ch/Sc...ge17_2.jpg

The range of the 155mm canon is about 40km (25 mile)
The performance can be compared with the M109 self propelled howitzer

In 1995 the major defence works became obselete and with the 21st century army programm where no longer part of the military

However because all the defence works are build inside the mountains they are still all there

Also the Monoblock defence works at strategic important locations are still operationel

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Yes, Switzerland is a very fascinating place for fortification enthusiasts, so many installations are in great shape since they were kept in active service since just a few years ago.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

The Swiss Army acquired 300+ Centurions, so there would be plenty of turrets to spare.

One little know thing is that the Swiss Army acquired 20 Centurions from the Canadian Army in 1978, they were used for spare parts and 4 turrets turned into simulators. One of the two Centurions visible in Thin's Panzermuseum is indeed a former canadian tank:
www.preservedtanks.com...5&Select=4

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

If I remember correctly the Swiss sold a lot of Centurions to Sweden in the 90's, they were mostly used as hard targets for missile tests, STRIX 120mm mortar ammo tests also took a heavy toll on them.

STRIX Promo with ex. Swiss Centurion hard targets

Ex. Swiss Centurion hit by a RB56 missle

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:28 am
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Great link! I like the outside to inside sequencing. The little chip of the topographic map explains the placement very well.

Do the Swiss have trouble with vandals or thieves damaging these installations?
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:41 am
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Do the Swiss have trouble with vandals or thieves damaging these installations?

Not that I am aware. Usually they are fences/enclosures around. Private associations take care of many of them, but they are tipically accessible only a few days a year or on demand. See Reuenthal for example:
www.festungsmuseum.ch/...on/f38.cfm

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

I have been reading in the information at the Festung Oberland site an little

And the information about the defence works is very good

I finally know what some of these metal doors are, that can be found along some of the major roads through the mountains

Some of them are acces doors to "Sperrstelle mit Sprengobjekt"
You could translate it with "blast location with explosive object"

The idea was to blast part of the mountain so it would drop onto the road beneath, to block the road

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

The idea was to blast part of the mountain so it would drop onto the road beneath, to block the road


Reminds me a lot of all the pre em-placed stuff in South Korea along the Western Corridor.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Centi-Bunker

Reminds me a lot of all the pre em-placed stuff in South Korea along the Western Corridor


That is not the only place where they have copied the idea

The same system was also used in Austria
Primarily to defend the country against Hungary and Czechoslovakia, later against the Warsaw Pact and NATO

I doubt if the Swiss invented it, most likely it is as old as mankind

However I'm 100% sure it where not the Dutch who invented it Laughing Laughing Laughing

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum