±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 946
Total: 946
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Photo Gallery
05: Photo Gallery
06: Photo Gallery
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: Photo Gallery
11: Home
12: Home
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Photo Gallery
18: Photo Gallery
19: Photo Gallery
20: Photo Gallery
21: News Archive
22: Photo Gallery
23: Photo Gallery
24: Photo Gallery
25: Statistics
26: Member Screenshots
27: Downloads
28: Photo Gallery
29: Photo Gallery
30: Photo Gallery
31: Downloads
32: Community Forums
33: Photo Gallery
34: Photo Gallery
35: Photo Gallery
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Photo Gallery
40: Photo Gallery
41: Photo Gallery
42: Photo Gallery
43: Photo Gallery
44: Photo Gallery
45: Photo Gallery
46: Statistics
47: Photo Gallery
48: Statistics
49: Photo Gallery
50: Photo Gallery
51: Photo Gallery
52: Photo Gallery
53: Photo Gallery
54: Downloads
55: Photo Gallery
56: Photo Gallery
57: Statistics
58: Photo Gallery
59: Member Screenshots
60: Photo Gallery
61: Photo Gallery
62: Photo Gallery
63: Photo Gallery
64: Home
65: Photo Gallery
66: Photo Gallery
67: Photo Gallery
68: Home
69: Photo Gallery
70: Downloads
71: Photo Gallery
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Photo Gallery
76: Photo Gallery
77: Photo Gallery
78: Member Screenshots
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Photo Gallery
82: Photo Gallery
83: Photo Gallery
84: Photo Gallery
85: Member Screenshots
86: Photo Gallery
87: Photo Gallery
88: Home
89: Photo Gallery
90: Photo Gallery
91: Downloads
92: Statistics
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Downloads
96: Photo Gallery
97: Photo Gallery
98: Home
99: Photo Gallery
100: Statistics
101: Home
102: Home
103: Home
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Photo Gallery
107: Home
108: Photo Gallery
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Statistics
113: Downloads
114: Photo Gallery
115: Home
116: Member Screenshots
117: Statistics
118: Photo Gallery
119: Downloads
120: Photo Gallery
121: Photo Gallery
122: Photo Gallery
123: Photo Gallery
124: Downloads
125: Home
126: Photo Gallery
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Photo Gallery
131: Photo Gallery
132: Photo Gallery
133: Photo Gallery
134: Home
135: Community Forums
136: News Archive
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Photo Gallery
140: Photo Gallery
141: News Archive
142: Photo Gallery
143: Downloads
144: Community Forums
145: Photo Gallery
146: Photo Gallery
147: Photo Gallery
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Member Screenshots
152: Home
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Home
157: Home
158: Member Screenshots
159: Community Forums
160: Photo Gallery
161: Photo Gallery
162: Home
163: Photo Gallery
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Downloads
172: Photo Gallery
173: Photo Gallery
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Photo Gallery
178: Downloads
179: Community Forums
180: Photo Gallery
181: Photo Gallery
182: Photo Gallery
183: Home
184: Photo Gallery
185: Home
186: Downloads
187: Home
188: Photo Gallery
189: Home
190: Photo Gallery
191: Photo Gallery
192: Photo Gallery
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Statistics
196: Photo Gallery
197: Photo Gallery
198: Downloads
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Statistics
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Photo Gallery
207: Photo Gallery
208: Home
209: Photo Gallery
210: Statistics
211: Photo Gallery
212: Home
213: Photo Gallery
214: Photo Gallery
215: Community Forums
216: Downloads
217: Photo Gallery
218: Statistics
219: Search
220: Photo Gallery
221: Member Screenshots
222: Community Forums
223: Member Screenshots
224: Home
225: Photo Gallery
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Home
230: Statistics
231: Downloads
232: Photo Gallery
233: Statistics
234: Photo Gallery
235: Statistics
236: Home
237: Photo Gallery
238: Statistics
239: Statistics
240: Photo Gallery
241: Statistics
242: Photo Gallery
243: Home
244: Photo Gallery
245: Home
246: Statistics
247: Photo Gallery
248: Photo Gallery
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: Photo Gallery
252: Member Screenshots
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Home
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Photo Gallery
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Statistics
277: Community Forums
278: Statistics
279: Member Screenshots
280: Photo Gallery
281: Photo Gallery
282: Downloads
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Downloads
287: Downloads
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Photo Gallery
291: Photo Gallery
292: Downloads
293: Photo Gallery
294: Photo Gallery
295: Photo Gallery
296: Photo Gallery
297: Photo Gallery
298: Photo Gallery
299: Photo Gallery
300: Photo Gallery
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Photo Gallery
304: Photo Gallery
305: Home
306: Photo Gallery
307: Photo Gallery
308: Home
309: Home
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Photo Gallery
314: Downloads
315: Downloads
316: Photo Gallery
317: Home
318: Community Forums
319: Photo Gallery
320: Photo Gallery
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Member Screenshots
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: Downloads
331: Downloads
332: Photo Gallery
333: Photo Gallery
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Photo Gallery
338: Photo Gallery
339: Home
340: Photo Gallery
341: Community Forums
342: Statistics
343: Photo Gallery
344: Photo Gallery
345: Photo Gallery
346: Photo Gallery
347: Photo Gallery
348: Photo Gallery
349: Photo Gallery
350: Photo Gallery
351: Photo Gallery
352: Photo Gallery
353: Photo Gallery
354: Photo Gallery
355: Member Screenshots
356: Photo Gallery
357: Downloads
358: Photo Gallery
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Photo Gallery
362: Downloads
363: Photo Gallery
364: Photo Gallery
365: Photo Gallery
366: Downloads
367: Home
368: Photo Gallery
369: Home
370: News Archive
371: Member Screenshots
372: Photo Gallery
373: Photo Gallery
374: Home
375: Photo Gallery
376: Photo Gallery
377: Photo Gallery
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Photo Gallery
381: Home
382: Home
383: Photo Gallery
384: Photo Gallery
385: Downloads
386: Photo Gallery
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Downloads
390: Home
391: Statistics
392: Photo Gallery
393: Photo Gallery
394: Home
395: Home
396: Member Screenshots
397: Photo Gallery
398: Photo Gallery
399: Home
400: Downloads
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Photo Gallery
404: Home
405: Photo Gallery
406: Photo Gallery
407: Photo Gallery
408: Home
409: Home
410: Home
411: Photo Gallery
412: Photo Gallery
413: Photo Gallery
414: Statistics
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Photo Gallery
419: Photo Gallery
420: Photo Gallery
421: Member Screenshots
422: Community Forums
423: Photo Gallery
424: Photo Gallery
425: Photo Gallery
426: Community Forums
427: Photo Gallery
428: Photo Gallery
429: Downloads
430: Photo Gallery
431: Photo Gallery
432: Member Screenshots
433: Photo Gallery
434: Photo Gallery
435: Downloads
436: Downloads
437: Photo Gallery
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Home
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Photo Gallery
444: Downloads
445: Community Forums
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Downloads
449: News Archive
450: Photo Gallery
451: Photo Gallery
452: Photo Gallery
453: Downloads
454: Home
455: Photo Gallery
456: Photo Gallery
457: Downloads
458: Photo Gallery
459: Home
460: Photo Gallery
461: Photo Gallery
462: Downloads
463: Member Screenshots
464: Photo Gallery
465: Photo Gallery
466: Photo Gallery
467: Photo Gallery
468: Photo Gallery
469: Photo Gallery
470: Photo Gallery
471: Member Screenshots
472: Photo Gallery
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Photo Gallery
476: Home
477: Photo Gallery
478: Home
479: Photo Gallery
480: Member Screenshots
481: Photo Gallery
482: Community Forums
483: Member Screenshots
484: Photo Gallery
485: Statistics
486: Photo Gallery
487: Home
488: Photo Gallery
489: Photo Gallery
490: Photo Gallery
491: Photo Gallery
492: Member Screenshots
493: Photo Gallery
494: Downloads
495: Community Forums
496: Photo Gallery
497: Community Forums
498: Home
499: Home
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Home
503: Photo Gallery
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Photo Gallery
507: Home
508: Photo Gallery
509: Photo Gallery
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Photo Gallery
513: Photo Gallery
514: Home
515: Photo Gallery
516: Community Forums
517: Photo Gallery
518: Photo Gallery
519: Photo Gallery
520: Member Screenshots
521: Home
522: Photo Gallery
523: Home
524: Photo Gallery
525: Member Screenshots
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Photo Gallery
530: Photo Gallery
531: Photo Gallery
532: Home
533: Home
534: Home
535: Home
536: Home
537: Community Forums
538: Home
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Photo Gallery
543: Photo Gallery
544: Downloads
545: Photo Gallery
546: Downloads
547: Statistics
548: Community Forums
549: Photo Gallery
550: Home
551: Photo Gallery
552: Photo Gallery
553: Photo Gallery
554: Photo Gallery
555: Home
556: Photo Gallery
557: Photo Gallery
558: Community Forums
559: Home
560: Community Forums
561: Photo Gallery
562: Photo Gallery
563: Photo Gallery
564: Photo Gallery
565: Member Screenshots
566: Photo Gallery
567: News Archive
568: Photo Gallery
569: Downloads
570: Community Forums
571: Photo Gallery
572: Photo Gallery
573: Photo Gallery
574: Photo Gallery
575: Photo Gallery
576: Photo Gallery
577: Statistics
578: Downloads
579: Home
580: Photo Gallery
581: Statistics
582: Photo Gallery
583: Member Screenshots
584: Home
585: Downloads
586: Statistics
587: Photo Gallery
588: Home
589: Community Forums
590: Photo Gallery
591: Downloads
592: Photo Gallery
593: Downloads
594: Community Forums
595: Home
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Photo Gallery
599: Photo Gallery
600: Photo Gallery
601: Member Screenshots
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Home
605: Photo Gallery
606: Home
607: Photo Gallery
608: Photo Gallery
609: Community Forums
610: Member Screenshots
611: Photo Gallery
612: Photo Gallery
613: News Archive
614: Downloads
615: Home
616: Photo Gallery
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Photo Gallery
620: Home
621: Photo Gallery
622: Downloads
623: Photo Gallery
624: Photo Gallery
625: Photo Gallery
626: Photo Gallery
627: Photo Gallery
628: Downloads
629: Downloads
630: Photo Gallery
631: News
632: Home
633: Photo Gallery
634: Photo Gallery
635: Photo Gallery
636: Photo Gallery
637: Home
638: Photo Gallery
639: Member Screenshots
640: Member Screenshots
641: News Archive
642: Photo Gallery
643: Photo Gallery
644: Photo Gallery
645: Downloads
646: Photo Gallery
647: Home
648: Photo Gallery
649: News
650: Community Forums
651: Photo Gallery
652: Photo Gallery
653: Downloads
654: Community Forums
655: Photo Gallery
656: Community Forums
657: Photo Gallery
658: Home
659: Photo Gallery
660: Downloads
661: Home
662: Community Forums
663: Statistics
664: Photo Gallery
665: Photo Gallery
666: Photo Gallery
667: Photo Gallery
668: Home
669: Statistics
670: Photo Gallery
671: Community Forums
672: Photo Gallery
673: Home
674: Photo Gallery
675: Photo Gallery
676: Downloads
677: Photo Gallery
678: Community Forums
679: News Archive
680: Photo Gallery
681: Photo Gallery
682: Community Forums
683: Photo Gallery
684: Photo Gallery
685: Downloads
686: Member Screenshots
687: Photo Gallery
688: Photo Gallery
689: Community Forums
690: Photo Gallery
691: Photo Gallery
692: Downloads
693: Photo Gallery
694: Photo Gallery
695: Home
696: Downloads
697: Photo Gallery
698: Photo Gallery
699: Photo Gallery
700: Downloads
701: Photo Gallery
702: Photo Gallery
703: Community Forums
704: Photo Gallery
705: Downloads
706: Photo Gallery
707: Member Screenshots
708: Photo Gallery
709: Photo Gallery
710: Photo Gallery
711: Photo Gallery
712: Home
713: Community Forums
714: Downloads
715: Photo Gallery
716: Downloads
717: Photo Gallery
718: Home
719: Photo Gallery
720: Photo Gallery
721: Photo Gallery
722: Community Forums
723: Home
724: Photo Gallery
725: Photo Gallery
726: Photo Gallery
727: Downloads
728: Photo Gallery
729: Home
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Photo Gallery
733: Community Forums
734: Photo Gallery
735: Photo Gallery
736: Home
737: Home
738: Photo Gallery
739: Member Screenshots
740: Statistics
741: Photo Gallery
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Member Screenshots
745: Photo Gallery
746: Photo Gallery
747: Home
748: Downloads
749: Statistics
750: Photo Gallery
751: Home
752: Home
753: Home
754: Home
755: Home
756: Home
757: Home
758: Home
759: Home
760: Statistics
761: Photo Gallery
762: Photo Gallery
763: Community Forums
764: Photo Gallery
765: Community Forums
766: Photo Gallery
767: Photo Gallery
768: Photo Gallery
769: Photo Gallery
770: Photo Gallery
771: Home
772: Photo Gallery
773: Photo Gallery
774: Photo Gallery
775: Member Screenshots
776: Community Forums
777: Photo Gallery
778: Community Forums
779: Photo Gallery
780: Photo Gallery
781: Photo Gallery
782: Photo Gallery
783: Photo Gallery
784: Photo Gallery
785: Photo Gallery
786: Downloads
787: Photo Gallery
788: Community Forums
789: Home
790: Photo Gallery
791: Photo Gallery
792: Photo Gallery
793: Photo Gallery
794: Home
795: Downloads
796: Home
797: Home
798: Home
799: Photo Gallery
800: Community Forums
801: Home
802: Photo Gallery
803: Photo Gallery
804: Member Screenshots
805: Photo Gallery
806: News Archive
807: Photo Gallery
808: Photo Gallery
809: Community Forums
810: Photo Gallery
811: Photo Gallery
812: Photo Gallery
813: Community Forums
814: Photo Gallery
815: Home
816: Home
817: Photo Gallery
818: Home
819: Photo Gallery
820: Statistics
821: Community Forums
822: Photo Gallery
823: Photo Gallery
824: Photo Gallery
825: Photo Gallery
826: Community Forums
827: Statistics
828: Photo Gallery
829: Photo Gallery
830: Photo Gallery
831: Community Forums
832: Photo Gallery
833: Photo Gallery
834: Member Screenshots
835: Downloads
836: Photo Gallery
837: Member Screenshots
838: Home
839: Photo Gallery
840: Photo Gallery
841: Downloads
842: Member Screenshots
843: Photo Gallery
844: Photo Gallery
845: Photo Gallery
846: Home
847: Downloads
848: Photo Gallery
849: Photo Gallery
850: Photo Gallery
851: Photo Gallery
852: Home
853: Photo Gallery
854: Member Screenshots
855: Community Forums
856: Photo Gallery
857: Community Forums
858: Home
859: Photo Gallery
860: Home
861: Photo Gallery
862: Photo Gallery
863: News Archive
864: Photo Gallery
865: Home
866: Photo Gallery
867: Photo Gallery
868: Photo Gallery
869: Statistics
870: Photo Gallery
871: Downloads
872: Photo Gallery
873: Home
874: Community Forums
875: Photo Gallery
876: Photo Gallery
877: Photo Gallery
878: Member Screenshots
879: Member Screenshots
880: Home
881: Community Forums
882: Photo Gallery
883: Photo Gallery
884: Home
885: Community Forums
886: Photo Gallery
887: Community Forums
888: Home
889: Home
890: Community Forums
891: Community Forums
892: Statistics
893: Photo Gallery
894: Photo Gallery
895: Photo Gallery
896: Community Forums
897: Photo Gallery
898: Statistics
899: Statistics
900: Community Forums
901: Photo Gallery
902: Photo Gallery
903: Statistics
904: Photo Gallery
905: Photo Gallery
906: Home
907: Photo Gallery
908: Photo Gallery
909: Photo Gallery
910: Home
911: News Archive
912: Statistics
913: Photo Gallery
914: Home
915: Photo Gallery
916: Member Screenshots
917: Home
918: Community Forums
919: Photo Gallery
920: Photo Gallery
921: Home
922: Photo Gallery
923: Home
924: Photo Gallery
925: Community Forums
926: Photo Gallery
927: Community Forums
928: Home
929: Photo Gallery
930: Member Screenshots
931: Photo Gallery
932: Photo Gallery
933: Photo Gallery
934: Photo Gallery
935: Photo Gallery
936: Photo Gallery
937: Community Forums
938: Home
939: Home
940: Downloads
941: Home
942: Home
943: Home
944: Home
945: Home
946: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Sherman Firefly
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:44 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

2) "They could ship locomotives why not heavier tanks

Planning for the entry into Europe began in 1942. At that time Shipping was a very critical issue. The 'Battle of the Atlantic' was still in the Desperate phase (remember the first shipment of Shermans that were sunk on their way to 8th Army in July of '42) Up until mid 43 it was a close call as to whether shipping was being lost faster than it could be replaced. That meant shipping space (and tonnage) would be critical. So both the 'Cube' (volume) and Weight had to be prioritized and balanced. It was decided in the various priority commities that Several 30 ton tanks were better than one or two 50 ton tanks. This was done early in the planning process. So priorities for the heavy tank (The M6) was reduced in priority since it was not expected to have shipping space, or a user driven demand. The pdesign plans for the Heavy tank were finalized in October 1940. I don't think the Tiger was even concieved at that time. At this time it was armed with a 3" gun and a coaxial 37mm. Later a turret with a 105mm gun (Not a howitzer a 50 caliber or so gun Shocked ) The other problem that came up with the heavy tank was reliability. The U.S. had some of the strictest reliability requirements of any country. This was at least partially derived from teh known need to support armies half way around the world. While German tanks fought within 1000 miles of the factory in almost any theater they were were deployed to American tanks had to move 1000 miles to get to their port of embarcation just to be laoded on a ship to begin their journey. I remember picking up somewhere that the M6 Heavy tank was able to run 1500 miles without maintenance but was still not considered reliable enough to be deployed. I don't think German heavy tanks ever reached that level of reliability. Because the priority of the heavy tank program had been reduced it was decided not to continue working to meet the reliability requirements. Initial production had been planned at 100 vehicles a month. There were 1354 Tiger I s built in about two years of production (Nov 42 Nov 44) so the U.S> was planning on building an equivilent number in one year.

As far as the fact they could ship locomotives. Locomotives were not being shipped in the volume that tanks were. Also some of the rail equipment was shipped in specialized vessels (Like the Seatrain Texas) that were equiped for it (70 ton cranes, tracks built in the decks, etc) and again locomotives were special priorities because they greatly reduced the number of trucks needed to run the logistics system.

I've also read that M26s could have been deployed a little earlier than they were. They were held up because the Bailey Bridges that had been stocked up fro the campaign would have needed modification kits to easily allow the wider Pershings to use them without a high probability of damage. The Pershings were withheld until most of the rivers had been crossed and the open terrain of Germany was in front of them

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:50 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

- Dontos
I usually don't get into these type discussions since my Sherman knowledge is lacking.

However, I do think that there is one 'exception'. Case in point is the M4A3E2. The earliest 'mention' to the idea is Feb 44, limited production in May/June/July 44, Shipment beginning in Sept 44, and in the hands of the Troops beginning in Sept 44. Now thats fast, even by todays standards......

BUT doesn't really prove anything except there is always one exception to any case......


It exactly proves that when there was a priority need that was recognized the system could respond


I'll shut up & try to learn somemore from this kniowledgable panel. A very deep discussion that is an excellent read.

Thanks
Don


Nah, join right in. I'm no 'expert' I just have tryed to read multiple sources, remember things and try to fairly evaluate them. (The I dig my heels in and fight like hell Wink )

The more the merrier

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:21 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

3) In the meantime:
- The German army switched from the 75mm on the Pz IV to the even more deadly 75mm on the Pz 5
- The Russian army had changed from the T34/76 to the T34/85
- The British army had changed from Crusaders to Churchill. I know they classified their tanks different, however they tried to do something

Well The Pz V first appeared in mid 43 but the Pz IV remained the base vehicle in production for what another year?

The Soviets upgraded from the T34/76 to T34/85 - Similar to the change from teh 75mm Sherman to the. 76mm Sherman. Anyone who has taken one of tours at Aberdeen knows my feeling on the T34 and the Sherman. I fell they were the two best tanks of WWII. Each had it's advantages and disadvantages and both traded some 'superier' features for production feasability. Reading Loza's book (Commanding The Red Army's Shermans) was interesting he felt the Sherman was as good as the T34. It's qualities were different from the T34 but that did not negate the fact that he felt it was an effective weapon.

British Tanks - Well the Chucrchill did not replace the Crusader. The Crusader was a 'cruiser' tank and was replaced in production by Centaurs and Cromwells which were armed with 6 pdr and later 75mm guns. The Churchill was an Infantry tank and fell in the series of the Matilda II, and Valentine. The Valentine started life with a 2 pdr and the last ones had been upgraded to a 75mm. The Churchill started with a hull mounted 3" Howitzer and a turret mounted 2 pdr. That was repalced with a 6 pdr and later a 75 mm (The same as the Sherman) None of these tanks carried a better gun than the Sherman. In fact one problem with teh British tanks is they were all designed with smaller turret rings that could not be upgraded to large guns like the 17pdr. In that way the Sherman was actually better since it had been designed with a larger (69") turret ring that was capable of handling larger guns like 76mm, 17pdr, and even 90mm.

By the end of the war the British were starting to build tanks with 17pdr (The Black Prince based on a widened Churchill) 77mm (The Comet cruiser tank) or the first of the next generation (and one of the truely great tanks of all time) The Centurion.

Of course there were also the less than successful Covenanter and Cavalier. And again The Sherman picked up a lot of the slack.

And don't get me wrong I really like the Churchill. It had a great reputation for survivability, could climb hills better than most other tanks and was large enough that it was a great basis for specialist vehicles. But it was sllooww.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

- Doug_Kibbey
1. Development is not production, it takes quite a while to convert prototype models and adapt existing lines to mass production....and assumes the product is even ready


True, however when there is no development - there will be nothing there for production
If development is dropped to an minimum it will delay and everything that will follow after, will also delay


- bsmart
I think the Tiger didn't debut until Mid 43 (about the same time as the Panther) So until they came out in Mid 43 (not 42) There was no direct proof that the Sherman was outclassed.. Yes it could be expected and work was being done on larger tanks but there was no direct evidence


Small correction on this part
The first Tiger tank debut was mid 1942 with the s-Pz Abt 502 in Russian
In Africa the first Tigers appeared with the s-Pz Abt 501 in Tunisia in november 1942
So the Sherman was outclassed in 1942

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

2) "They could ship locomotives why not heavier tanks

- bsmart
The pdesign plans for the Heavy tank were finalized in October 1940. I don't think the Tiger was even concieved at that time


Well first development for an AFV, which later turned into the Tiger, started as early as 1938
Back then it was still an 30 ton AFV, at the end of 1941 this became an 36ton AFV
The final developmentof the Tiger started in May 1942

Concerning the shipping distance, the points you mention are all true, only you are forgetting 1 thing
In Germany an big part of the 1000 miles back to the factory where bombed or the factory it self was bombed
That was an problem the US army did not have

So the shipping lanes may have been longer, they where also safer

- bsmart
I've also read that M26s could have been deployed a little earlier than they were. They were held up because the Bailey Bridges that had been stocked up fro the campaign would have needed modification kits to easily allow the wider Pershings to use them without a high probability of damage. The Pershings were withheld until most of the rivers had been crossed and the open terrain of Germany was in front of them


This wonders me that there had to be special modification to the bridge bacause of the M26

The British Churchill weight was only 1 ton less then the M26
Never heard of it that the British could not send the Churchill across an Bailey bridge, because it was to heavy

The British army had to travel to German across Belgium and The Netherlands
And if there is one location in Western Europe with an lot of rivers to cross, then it's Belgium and The Netherlands

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

- Michel_Krauss
2)
This wonders me that there had to be special modification to the bridge bacause of the M26

The British Churchill weight was only 1 ton less then the M26
Never heard of it that the British could not send the Churchill across an Bailey bridge, because it was to heavy
Michel


The Bailey Bridge was by no means the only bridging equipment used in the ETO (and they were not so readily available as "Kelly's Hero" might lead one to believe. At least as important were the pontoon and treadway bridges (built in varying degrees of complexity and capacity, depending on the conditions). Erecting any bridging under fire is never simple (though it certainly has been done).

Two sources to which you might want to refer to some of the difficulties are the chapter "Hell and High Water" in Michael Doubler's "Closing with the enemy" and the link below on the Rhine crossings.

140.194.76.129/publica.../c-7-5.pdf

There are many other sources on bridging information in WWII, if someone else cares to list them. I'm on the way out the door.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

Hi Doug,

thanks for the file, will read it

However the point of modifications still remains
The problems with bridging are not an problem for only the US army
All the Allies faced the same problem, because most of them used the same equipment

Strange thing by the way
If there is one piece of equipment connected to the US army it's the Bailey Bridge
However the construction of the bridge was developed in the UK

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:51 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

- Michel_Krauss
Hi Doug,


However the point of modifications still remains
The problems with bridging are not an problem for only the US army
All the Allies faced the same problem, because most of them used the same equipment
Michel


Only the U.S. Army had to contend with transporting and supporting it's bridging equipment (as well as it's tanks) across the Atlantic Ocean. No other Allied or Axis power had to consider that, as has been already pointed out.

I'm having some difficulty following the point of your thesis, other than it seems a blanket condemnation of the U.S. for not producing what amounts to a Tiger equivalent in what you regard as a timely manner. Is that what you are trying to say, or is there something more that is not so readily apparent?

Anti-Tiger (all ~1,500 of them) roles seemed to have been adequately fulfilled by Allied artillery and CAS.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:20 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

Let me try this again (The computer ate my first attempt Sad )

I got sloppy when I specified Bailey Bridges. The U.S> and British had established 'loading gauges' for their family of bridging equipment. This established a range of vehicle widths (including wheel or track withs) that could safely and effecively use the bridges. When the M26 came along it was wider than the existing gauge. Although it could use some of the bridging equipment the chance of damaging the bridge or the tank was increased. There were modification kits being produced that modified the bridges to handle wider vehicles. These kits were not available in enough volume or throughout the commands in time to be available for the campaign through France and Belguim. SO it was decided not to push up the employment of the M26 until most of the rivers had been crossed.

The Churchill while as heavy as the M26 was narrower (This was the reason it couldn't me modified with the 17pdr) so fit within the standard loading gauge.

As far as the dates for the Tiiger I don't see the Nov 42 date when they were sent to Tunisia as the important date. I think the date when it was first encountered by the western allies would be a better date to use. I think that was spring of 43. Also with teh development dates. I saw the dates for the 30-35 ton tank when i went back to check something else for this discussion. But I think a 30-35 ton tank doesn't fit the role of a heavy tank. The M3 Lee and the M4 Sherman were in that class. So I think when the requirement was changed to something in the 45 ton class would be more appropriate. But I will concede that both armies saw the need for a heavy tank and started development.

About the distancesI'm not sure the sea lanes across the Atlantic were any less attacked than the rail lines out of Germany in the 41-43 era when the plans were being developed. I think the distances involved put the American army in a different mindset than the Germans. When German tanks need major maintenance or overhaul they were returned to well established and equiped depots and factories in the German industrial base. The Americans planning for a widely deployed army figured that once teh tanks were shipped overseas they were not coming back home until the war was over (if at all) Soany maintenance, upgrading or repair would be done by field depots without the advantages of large heavy industrial faclities. This caused them to be more demanding in reliability and maintenance requirements. This meant that tanks were not 'standardised' (Made available for general issue) until they meat high reliability standards, had extensive spares kits developed and mobile repair shops capable of supporting them were ready for deployment. So the teething problems that Tigers and Panthers had early in their careers would not have been accepted in the U.S. Army. Tanks in the 45 tone and heavier categories were pushing the capabilities of engines and transmissions. That was he primary issue that held up the American Heavy tank program. German heavy tanks continued to have mantenance issues throughout their lives. This was accepted by the german army. The U.S. army was not willing to do that.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:36 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

Gee, invoke the ghost of the old board and look what happens!

Seems like I'm not the only one who remembers the discussions, too. (And we even got someone to mention 'shatter gap'...just like old times.)

There were two other delaying factors that may have been mentioned glancingly but not explored further: Organizational and industrial inertia.

By organizational inertia I mean that there was a good deal of resistance, within the US Army in the US, to changing the doctrine that led to the M4 Sherman's development. That was the "infantry support" doctrine that emphasized the HE capabilities of the tank, instead of the AT capabilities. There was a strong cadre in the War Department that believed in the doctrine, and took considerable convincing to change their minds. The introduction of the M10 TDs was to some extent an effort to augment the AT force without compromising the basic "infantry support" doctrine. In the end, enough evidence was presented that North Africa, then Italy, then the ETO were not exceptions to the doctrine, but rather showed an need for new doctrine. But this did not happen until it had influenced arms production schedules until around 1943.

Industrial inertia is simply the inherent resistance that any industry has to changes in production methods, materials and processes. In the instance of heavy manufacturing industries this inertia is considerable, and moreso when it is imperative not to interrupt production before or after a change. Changing a heavy manufacturing operation is more than just re-arranging the machinery and changing the drawings. Every single part must be changed simultaneously, and each part has a trail that leads through engineering, production, and logistics back to the shovel digging the iron ore out of the mine it is found in. Machine operators may need to be re-trained to use new production techniques, or just to understand the drawings and assembly sequences. And all of these need to come together within a day or two of the previous production line being stopped (at least under wartime production). It's a huge undertaking that happened simultaneously with the urgently needed production already underway, and planned to the smallest detail. It's not hard to imagine why there was a good deal of caution about making major changes to any tank production without some very convincing reasons!

So, my additional $0.02. Probably worth more if it was Canadian, but it's all I have in my pocket at the moment.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:47 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

Hi folks,

I would like to make an general request first: would you all be so nice to
1) drop the abbreviations or;
2) at least to explane it once what it means, when planning to use it more often?

My native language in not English and I have to search them all
The ETO was easy to find, only 36 abbreviations options
ETO European Theater Of Operations

However for CAS I have found about 200 abbreviations options
CAS Close Air support

Thanks,

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

Let's continue with the discusion

Well the point is correct that all nations kept on developing new weapons, except for the US army

- The Germans developed new tanks, the known Pz III and IV (short barreled) where followed by the Pz IV (long barreled) and the Pz V

- The Russians developed the 76mm T34 into the 85mm T34 and all the other stuff they kept developing (ISU-152 / IS-2 / KW-85 / ISU-122 / etc)

- The British changed to an different classification for their main tank and also changed its weapons

The US army main tanks changed from 75mm to 76mm and it was not even an approvement

Concerning the artillery and the CAS
The artillery only has an change to knock-out an tank with an allmost direct hit
And because we are dicussing army doctrine at the moment, using artillery against tanks was also agianst army doctrine
The main job of the artillery was fire support, not shooting tanks
Shooting tanks was the job of the AT-folks, either towed or self propelled, who most of the time where not there when needed
In an matter of fact, the only ones who used artillery directly against tanks on an large scale where the Germans and the Russians

The CAS only had an change of knocking out tanks when it was fine weather
For example, the first day's of the Battle of the Bulge the CAS could not fly because of the bad weather
And if there was 1 moment in WW2 for the CAS, it was then

Concerning the Tiger tank, the first encounters where in Africa late 1942 and not mid 1943
The Britsh army started an crash production programm for the 17pdr AT in 1942 to have them send to Africa to stop the Tiger tanks there

Finally the Bailey bridge
The M26 was 3.5m width, the Bailey bridge road section width was 3.7m
What modifications where needed for the M26?
Also from what I understand about the gauges, it was more like "we have an piece of paper that say's it is not possible, so we cann't do it"

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

Regarding bridging and so forth, it was a real concern in the US Army.

The formal discussion and approval of Ordnance matters is documented in Ordnance Committee Meeting minutes (OCM). Many regarding tanks from 1944 on contain a non-concurrence from the Chief of the Corps of Engineers because of the effect that higher weights would have on the abilty of the Engineers to get the vehicles across streams with the equipment existing or in production.

For example, when the 76mm M4 was approved, the Engineers noted that previous agreements specified a 35 ton upper limit on tank weight. This was used to design the M2 treadway bridge: "The Chief of Engineers cannot design, test, and procure bridges to take care of these upward revisions in weight and get them immediately into the field for use. Though the steel treadway bridge M2 has just been standardized it is expected that they will not be available until the middle of this year." (10 Feb 44)

In the OCM regarding the M4A3E2 (2 Mar 44): "Inasmuch as the gross weight of the subject tank is 84,000 lbs., thus exceeding the maximum allowable weight of 35 tons by 14,000 lbs., the Chief of Engineers does not concur in the recommended action. " The same action also reiterated their concern with the recent authorization of 250 T26 tanks that weighed nearly the same as the M4A3E2 because "there is no f;oating bridge equipment available in the theaters to carry loads in excess of 35 tons . . . Furthermore, the new M2 steel treadway bridge when available, will have acapacity of only 40 tons in a 7 foot per second current."

As to having a "piece of paper" setting down limits; without any contrary evidence, that what you have to use to design things. You have to assume that everyone is working toward the same goals and that the requirements that are interchanged are real limits. You certainly don't want to be the guy who made something outside those paper limits when it is found that the limits are in fact correct when encountered in steel, stone, and brick!

It is not a simple matter to just bump weights up as needed. Everything that has been designed to or used with the previous limit has to be examined to find the weak link. If the design cannot handle it, it becomes an issue of determining what can be done to correct it. All designs have margins or safety factors built in, but they are there for a reason. The designer must account for things he suspects can happen doesn't know will happen. There may be limits (especially pre-computers) on what can be analyzed. There are inherent variabilities in construction and materials that must be considered. A very difficult and time consuming process.

Michel, have you read Armored Thunderbolt by Steve Zaloga? It has the most succint discussion of this whole issue.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

- Kurt_Laughlin
Michel, have you read Armored Thunderbolt by Steve Zaloga


to be honest I did Mr. Green

And I'm an mechanical engineer for profession, so I know about the safety factor's Wink

The load bearing factor of the bridge is not the problem and has never been
The standard safety factor for steel construction is 1.5, however when used for the transport of or the protection of people it can be as high as 10

However discussion once in a while is also nice Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: Sherman Firefly

"The Germans developed new tanks, the known Pz III and IV (short barreled) where followed by the Pz IV (long barreled) and the Pz V"

I don't see much difference in the upgrading of the guns in the Pz III and Pz IV and the upgrading of the Sherman from the 75mm to the 76mm

"The Russians developed the 76mm T34 into the 85mm T34 and all the other stuff they kept developing (ISU-152 / IS-2 / KW-85 / ISU-122 / etc)"

And the difference with the M3-M4 Lee-Sherman which was used as the basis for the M7 (Priest), M10 GMC (Gun Motor Carriage), M12 GMC, M36 GMC, M40 GMC, M31, M32 and M74 Recovery Vehicles. And just for clarity the ISU-152, KV-85, IS-2, etc were out growths of the KV1 heavy tank developmant line not the T-34. But everyone used their basic vehicles as the basis for support vehicles

" The British changed to an different classification for their main tank and also changed its weapons"

This I don't understand. Towards the end of the war they did merge the Infantry and Cruiser tanks into a common 'Universal tank' But I don't see how this is seen as a complaint against the U.S. Army. The U.S. had standardised on on 'universal family of tanks much earlier. in The U.S. the M3/M5 light tank and the M4 medium tank was used both by Armored Divison units (where the British would have used cruiser tanks) and Independent tank battalions which were used to support Infantry units (Where the British would have used infantry tanks)

"The US army main tanks changed from 75mm to 76mm and it was not even an approvement"

I'll flat out disagree with this. As I mentioned above with the Pz III and Pz IV comparison. The upgrade from the 75mm to the 76mm was just as big of an improvement as the German upgrades or Soviet 76mm to 85mm upgrade. The Americans also upgraded the suspension. The U.S. had a very active development program. BUT they understood the need to maintain production while developing improved weapons. They also had to deal with competing priorities of several services and several theaters.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 3 of 5
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum