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Massimo_Foti · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:27 pm Post subject: French Heavyweights

The web is full of pictures from Saumur, yet there are some less-know models that could get some additional visibility. AMX-50 and ARL-44 are so huge... It's hard to get a good portrait of them, even with a wide-angle lens

Massimo

the_shadock · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

note that the ARL-44 front idlers are still in their original 3-colour camouflage.

P-O

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

Yep, those angles look very familiar Wink

Neil

JeffStringer · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 637

I still like that oscillating turret design.

WimD. · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

Hi,

The ARL-44 used the German Maybach HL230 engine, the AMX-50 used the Maybach HL295 12 cylinder engine with fuel injection.

Wim

WimD. · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

In 1945, over 70 percent of the firm's factory buildings have been destroyed. In september 1946, an agreement is reached to work on the development of a tank engine (type HL295) for the French army. That agreement prevents the destruction of the plant. The development work is carried out at Vernon near Paris and makes it possible to re-open the Friedrichsfaven factory in 1948 (http://www.mtu-online.com/fileadmin/fm-dam/mtu-global/pdf/mtureport/0901-4_Chronology.pdf).

Here a picture of a HL295 I took at the WTS Koblenz.

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

Where and when were these heavyweights designed to serve, and did they, ever? I know nothing about them. How were they gunned? Can someone give us the "short course" or good link to get some background (preferably in English, but I'll take what I can get).

the_shadock · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARL_44

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_50

not sure if they are "good links" but I like Wikipedia..

P-O

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

Thanks, P-O...

Any good stuff out there on:

"These efforts were coordinated by CDM (Camouflage du Matériel), a secret Vichy army organisation trying to produce matériel forbidden by the armistice conditions, with the ultimate goal of combining these components into the design of a possible future thirty ton battle tank"

...sounds like they played a dangerous game, never heard of them before. Don't expect there's much out there in English, but it sounds interesting.

D.

the_shadock · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

there is a whole section about the "Camouflage du matériel" on this article, section 8.1 :

Armée de Vichy - Wikipedia

but it's in French.

P-O

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

This is it passed through Google Translate:

According to the armistice agreements with the practical arrangements were specified by the Committee Wiesbaden Army Armistice had to settle for basic equipment. It was originally intended that the excess weapons should be stored in warehouses monitored by the Germans, but on 1 August 1940, the chance to see England make peace becoming weaker and weaker, General von Stülpnagel, head of the Committee informed his French counterpart, General Huntziger weapons of the most important categories are to be transferred to Germany [99].

The Germans themselves had practiced concealment before the war was naturally wary of camouflage possibilities that the French could implement in their turn. However, a report from German Army Command (OKH) dated February 17, 1941 concludes: "there is no large stocks of material hidden in France. The tanks and guns have been abandoned or transferred to Germany in magazines [...] under German control. However, when in November 1942, the Germans occupy the free zone, they will be surprised to discover secrets 536 deposits containing a sizeable amount of weapons [99].

Concealment of arms was widespread at all levels of the Army at the beginning of July 1940 (early July, a handwritten letter, General Colson, Minister of War, calls for commanders of military regions to proceed with camouflage equipment and supplies [7]) and enjoying all kinds of complicity. And partly organized by the General Staff of the Army (BMA) [100]. The complicity of the authorities is less clear after September 6, the Germans began to tighten their control over the Army of armistice and Huntziger who was appointed Minister of State Secretary of War would prove clearly that the occupation authorities the French honor their fair share of the agreement [99].

Within the command of the Army of armistice, the illegal organization set up to oversee clandestine stocks of weapons and vehicles called "Conservation of Materials" or CDM, which also means "Camouflage Material. It has been established by the commander Emile Mollard, appointed himself head of the "Hardware" 1 Picquendar office by Colonel, Chief of Staff of the Army. Section "Hardware" serves as legal cover Mollard designating a local representative of CDM in each military region [101] [102].

One of the HOM's is building a fleet of military trucks under the cover of civilian transport companies which vehicles are sold with the understanding that the Army could use in emergencies. 3720 vehicles were diverted and 18 civil societies often led and organized by officers and NCOs armistice leave [101] [102] (Henri Amouroux speaks of "over 3,500 trucks and buses [102] ). It is only in December 1943 the Germans discovered the pot to the roses. The commander Mollard and many of his colleagues were then arrested. 949 trucks will be confiscated by the Germans and 134 will be used only by groups of resistance [101].

The data collection phase, identification of weapons and camouflage finishes in spring 1941, but then the MDC is responsible for maintaining the equipment to keep it hidden in operation. In fact, when the Germans discovered caches of weapons, it noted that the material has been carefully maintained [101].

Paxton believes that for the lightly armed, all the equipment hidden in France is 80% or less of the material officially equipping the Army of armistice. In that light weapons, must be added hundreds of heavy weapons such as anti-tank guns, the Army of armistice was not authorized to possess [101]. According to Henri Amouroux, during the winter of 1940-1941 is 65,000 rifles, machine guns and 9,500 machine guns, 200 mortars, 55 75mm guns, antitank and antiaircraft guns that are hidden as well [103], [ 104]. End of 1941, General Picquendar, Chief of Staff of the Army, estimated at a total of 15 to 18 billion francs worth of arms and ammunition concealed [103].

The volume of all material disguised as North Africa is the same order of magnitude as camouflaged metropolis. After November of 1942, the two stocks of weapons not experience the same fate, since the bulk of the metropolis will fall into German hands while that of North Africa will remain in the hands of the Army of Africa passed the Allied side. In Annecy, the battalion commander of the 27th Mountain Infantry Battalion, Lieutenant-Colonel of Valletta Osia had carried arms to camouflage with the encouragement of Lieutenant-Colonel Linares, Deputy Chief of Staff [97] . The service "Camouflage Materials" was Lieutenant Morel [97] who became known under the name of Tom Morel. Valletta Osia of passing into hiding 16 December 1942 when the prefect of the amount delivered to the German weapons caches estimated that only one fifth of the part he succeeds in saving for the needs of first scrub [105].

Besides the camouflage material, the development of plans to involve the Army of armistice in the liberation of France is another departure from the terms of the armistice. Especially after the reversal of the course of the war resulting from the invasion of the Soviet Union and entry into the war the United States in December 1941 that such plans are becoming topical [106].

During the summer of 1941, Lieutenant-Colonel Touzet du Vigier is charged by General Picquendar to establish an engineering secret that will examine the possibility of tripling the Army of armistice. The dominant idea of Touzet du Vigier is to prepare a combined action with forces of the Anglo-American in the Mediterranean. Many other hypothetical projects are developed by various groups within the Army, for example, taking by surprise La Rochelle to make available to Allied forces landing a deepwater port [106]. The German authorities have banned any reconstitution of archives as a basis for possible mobilization, officers in charge of raising illegal, including René Carmille, Director of National Statistics are vital statistics records on punched cards under this administration [106].

These various plans to meet the highest levels of the hierarchy a home rather shy and reserved [107], but above all they are developed in isolation, without consultation with allies and ignoring their global strategy [17]. As a result, these plans lack realism as progress of events in November 1942 where it will be that when the Allies a foothold in North Africa and the Germans occupied the free zone, no officer who designed the plans will imagine carrying them out [106].

JiriTintera · Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: French Heavyweights

Link to the French address:

AMX-50
www.chars-francais.net...;Itemid=41

ARL-44
www.chars-francais.net...;Itemid=41

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