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VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

To my best of knowledge there have never been an Avenger tank in Denmark.

They had some Univeral carriers disguised as tanks used as targets.

Michel_Krauss · Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

- VonForhud

never been an Avenger tank in Denmark

well, for some reason, that's never an big problem within the military defence

In the Netherlands there are some ex-Italian M47 tanks on the shooting ranges
Don't ask how they ended up here Confused

First of all Italy is not one of our neighbouring countries
Second the Netherlands never used the M47 tank, we recieved the Centurion tanks instead
So it's also not some ex-Dutch military equipment that they have been giving back

Michel

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

In the Netherlands there are some ex-Italian M47 tanks on the shooting ranges. Don't ask how they ended up here

Italian M47s were acquired with MDAP, so at the end of their servce life they were supposed to go back to the USA.

The Italian Army kept them in service until the late '80, within second-line units in southern Italy, until they were replaced by Centauro armoured cars.

After that date they were usable only as monuments or range targets Laughing

As far as I know quite a bunch of M47s used as monuments in the USA are former italian tanks.

Massimo

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

Here is the letter from the Danish soldier who rediscovered the 10.5 cm leFH 18(Sf) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine Schlepper in Irag.

Oddly there are not many days since I last thought about it when I saw my picture on a foreign armor forum

Yes it is me who took the picture back in 2005. It stood as a monument at the entrance to a bombed tanks or ordnance factory north of Basrah, not far from the remnants of a Saddam memorial. I was well aware that it was a rarity that stood there. I contacted the Bovington Tank Museum, Panzer Museum in Munster and armor museum in Samur. Bovington and Munster knew about it, Samur I never heard from.

Some weeks after I was up at it again, I saw to my horror that the side armor was removed. In 2005 there was a lot of wrecks around the landscape, vehicles from 3 wars, so there was plenty to look at. At that time also began to cut up these wrecks. Whether it was a start scrapping or on a local Arabs had taken sides with a roof or like I do not know.
I have asked several who have been there in recent teams, no one can remember it. It also became a "rogue area" (Full of insurgents) so it was not a place you just drive straight up to.

How it ended up in Iraq, yes it is a good question. I talked a lot with Ole Drostrup (of www.drostrup.com)about it. And our best guess is that it may have come with the little arms through the Germans did to Iraqis in 1941. Or from Syria? they had several former German armored vehicles in service after the war, the Panzer IV, StuG III, etc.. Perhaps as a gift from Egypt? The British had influence and bases in Iraq for sometime in the 1950s. Maybe they dragged it from North Africa? Conquest from the war with Iran? Yes, theories are many.

It is my best guess.

Very interesting that this issue is raised again. Hope indeed that it had been rescued.

--- Does anyone have any info about the Lorraine in Basrah?--

TimRoyall · Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

Re the Avengers, I wrote a long article about the Avenger some years ago for Wheeland tracks magaizine. Later Hanno Spoelstra found some more information about them and he has the full story and photos.

In short the Avenger was a SP antitank version of the 1944 Challenger tank and a few were produced for use by the Royal Artillery. It seems that the Danish government acquired 2 in August 1952 but that by 1955 they were disposed of for use as targets and various items including "two chassis of "Avenger" tank destroyers were delivered to the Garrison Commander in Jægersprislejren (an army barracks in northern part of Zealand). 2 photos exist of them with troops posing on them which I have copies of but they're not mine to post.

Tim,

the_shadock · Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

- VonForhud

Here is the letter from the Danish soldier who rediscovered the 10.5 cm leFH 18(Sf) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine Schlepper in Irag.

Oddly there are not many days since I last thought about it when I saw my picture on a foreign armor forum

Yes it is me who took the picture back in 2005. It stood as a monument at the entrance to a bombed tanks or ordnance factory north of Basrah, not far from the remnants of a Saddam memorial. I was well aware that it was a rarity that stood there. I contacted the Bovington Tank Museum, Panzer Museum in Munster and armor museum in Samur. Bovington and Munster knew about it, Samur I never heard from.

Some weeks after I was up at it again, I saw to my horror that the side armor was removed. In 2005 there was a lot of wrecks around the landscape, vehicles from 3 wars, so there was plenty to look at. At that time also began to cut up these wrecks. Whether it was a start scrapping or on a local Arabs had taken sides with a roof or like I do not know.
I have asked several who have been there in recent teams, no one can remember it. It also became a "rogue area" (Full of insurgents) so it was not a place you just drive straight up to.

How it ended up in Iraq, yes it is a good question. I talked a lot with Ole Drostrup (of www.drostrup.com)about it. And our best guess is that it may have come with the little arms through the Germans did to Iraqis in 1941. Or from Syria? they had several former German armored vehicles in service after the war, the Panzer IV, StuG III, etc.. Perhaps as a gift from Egypt? The British had influence and bases in Iraq for sometime in the 1950s. Maybe they dragged it from North Africa? Conquest from the war with Iran? Yes, theories are many.

It is my best guess.

Very interesting that this issue is raised again. Hope indeed that it had been rescued.

--- Does anyone have any info about the Lorraine in Basrah?--

Experience shows that we always have an answer. The question is : "when will we know what happened to this tank ?".

P-O

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

Avenger tanks.

They were delivered in August 1952. It is not clear whether it was a purchase or weaponshelp. FKF (Defence Command) chose to delay preparation until it was decided whether to have M46 or the Centurion tanks, since it apparently expected that it would go for Avenger if it was Centurion, as it is expected that the two vehicles shared the various components.

In September 1952 the aim was to find manuals and find out what part the situation was with the Avenger. In December 1953 tanks had been abandoned and FKF suggest that you scrap them and use the engines for training purposes, since it is the same engine type as in Centurion.
At that time most M10's already arrived, so it fits very well. It could also indicate that the cars were bought by junk MDAP equipment usually meant negotiations with Americans on what to do with it. Eg. left M32B1 salvage wagon M4A3E4 Sherman and M24 all a paper trail in the archive for phasing out because you had to ask the Americans.

The two Avengers were sent to Jægerspris as targets around 1954-55, when the two image DMKFs site comes from.

www.dmkf.dk/gallerier/...age16.html

www.dmkf.dk/gallerier/...age17.html

All indications say that the cars were bought to trial, but never prepared because of the impending M10 deliveries via MDAP. The act does not figure in any of HTK / FKFs archives on engine stock, suggesting that they were never recorded, disclosed or loaned.

So in short, they were shot out in Jægerspris to bits and pieces from 1954 onward.

I hope this helps.

the_shadock · Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

- VonForhud

Some weeks after I was up at it again, I saw to my horror that the side armor was removed. In 2005 there was a lot of wrecks around the landscape, vehicles from 3 wars, so there was plenty to look at. At that time also began to cut up these wrecks. Whether it was a start scrapping or on a local Arabs had taken sides with a roof or like I do not know.

Before (March 2005) :

After (May 2005):

Picture provided by VonForhud

the tank is now probably scrapped...

P-O

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

This is the FIRST time ANYONE has seen this picture except the photographer and a couple of other guys.

I sincerely hope someone somewhere can tell if its still there.

the_shadock · Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

- VonForhud

This is the FIRST time ANYONE has seen this picture except the photographer and a couple of other guys.

I sincerely hope someone somewhere can tell if its still there.

well, I didn't ask for permission to publish the picture on this forum, I hope that you don't mind.. but I'm really happy that you sent it to me. Thanks.

P-O

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

Thats okay I cleared it with Rasmus

He even let me post the rest.

Which I am gonna do

tomorrow Laughing

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

The Danes received wartime USGI M1 Garand rifles in the mid-1950's. Their terms were different than many other country's. When they couldn't buy any more, they bought new production rifles from Italy. In the late 1990's a couple of shipping containers of these rifles ended up in Canada after being sold from war reserves by Denmark. The American border was closed to rifles that had not be loaned to the user country.

So, Canadian gun owners bought these guns for $150 a piece or 4 for $500. My 1941 production Springfield was part of a trade for a German G43. My 1954 production Italian Beretta is serial number PB 3x, and my 1955 Breda is just about perfect.

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/71091388@N00/4609078781/" title="Dell 015 by vonforhud, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3079/4609078781_f5476e5781_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Dell 015" /></a>

A Vickers tankette from 1933 on display at Tøjhusmuseet Denmark.

the_shadock · Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

guess it is the Carden-Lloyd Patrol Car Mk VI (FP 5)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/71091388@N00/4609078781/

P-O

bialy-r · Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Tanks and AFVs in Denmark

- the_shadock

guess it is the Carden-Lloyd Patrol Car Mk VI (FP 5)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/71091388@N00/4609078781/

P-O

Some better photos of Carden-Lloyd Patrol Car Mk VI (FP 5)

upload.wikimedia.org/w...C_pic9.JPG

at the end of

commons.wikimedia.org/...openhagen)

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