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L.Delsing · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Feb 10, 2006 Posts: 960

The following was seen at Schaarsbergen (NLD) in the Arnhem War Museum '40 - '45, Kemperbergerweg 780 (N 52 01.620 E 005 52.352). The guns are in a bad state but at least under a roof. The museum knows it, but don't have funds/specialists to restore/preserve the guns.

I'am absolutely no expert on artillery pieces but (as Massimo said about the Krupp guns) I'am starting to get interested in these old PAK's (and others)

So who can help ID these guns??

Here they come;

Type?

PAK40???

Type?

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

I am not an artillery guru, but I'll try my best.

First and last are easy. Last is a 7.5 cm Pak 40, First is an Oerlikon 20 mm, can't say the exact model, there were just too many.

Second and third require to go back to the thirties, when Rheinmetall designed a 3.7 cm anti-tank gun, it was state of the art, got some good export sales and was used by the German Army as 3.7 cm Pak 36. Rheinmetall sold the design to Soviet Union, were it was produced as 37 mm first, then enlarged to 45 mm. The soviets even build a 76 mm infantry gun on the same carriage. Usually you can telly a soviet 37 mm from a german gun due to the spoked wheels used by the soviets, but it may be tricky, sometimes even 37 vs 45 mm is difficult to recognize on a picture. See Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._%281-K%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...%2853-K%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...%28M-42%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._gun_M1943

Now, back to our shots, the second looks like a 37 mm to me (or a 45 mm?), but the wheels looks unusual to me. Either it's a kind of wheel I haven't seen before on a soviet gun (again, I am not an expert), or they put a pair of Oerlikon wheels on it.

Third gun is a soviet 76 mm regimental gun for sure.

Massimo

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

BTW There is at least another soviet light AT gun in NLD:
www.com-central.net/in...8&start=15

Massimo

Walter · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

Massimo
About the Russian Gun with the strange wheels.
The person in the museum who is supposed to be the weapons expert , is an acquaintance of me.
He told me last week that the gun is 4,2 cm ,but maybe I didn't hear it well and he meant maybe 4,5 cm.
About the wheels. They indeed don't belong to the gun ,but the original spoked wheels are standing against the wall at the back of the gun. ( not noticible on the pic )

Walter

Walter · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

Massimo
The third gun is a German Infanterie Geschütz 7,5 cm
That acquaintance showed me the papersfor registration.

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

Thanks a lot Walter! I was off-track thinking about soviet guns. They were germans, and very rare models. That's explain the wheels. Shame on me Crying or Very sad

So the anti-tank (second shot) is a rare 4.2 cm Pak 41. A conical gun, I've never seen one myself. See here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_cm_Pak_41

The infantry gun is another rare one, an 7.5 cm Infanteriegeschütz 37. I forgot it has a peculiar muzzle brake! See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...C3%BCtz_37

Folks, those two pieces are *very* exciting. Please try to take a full walkaround set of pictures on both of them whenever the opportunity arise. I would love to get a few dozens shots of both.

Many thanks to both Lesley and Walter

Massimo

Walter · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

Massimo
Maybe some misunderstanding in the second gun ( with strange wheels )
The 4,2 cm is correct allthough is's not German but Russian
Is that possible or is it indeed 4,5 cm instead ?
I shall take some more pics for you this week.

Walter · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

Some additional info on the third gun ( the 7,5 cm Infantery Geschütz ).
The right leg is replica and the barrel is not the original one.The original that was on it when they got the gun was blown up,and therefore replaced by another barrel.
It is also missing the breech.
Inside the museum is another ( blown up ) barrel with the muzzlebreak on it .

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

- Walter

Massimo
Maybe some misunderstanding in the second gun ( with strange wheels )
The 4,2 cm is correct allthough is's not German but Russian
Is that possible or is it indeed 4,5 cm instead ?

If it's soviet it's 45 mm. A german 4,2 cm would be almost too good to be true Crying or Very sad

Check Wikipedia's links I posted to see the soviet gun

- Walter

I shall take some more pics for you this week.

Thanks. No need to hurry up, I will be on holyday for the first half of august and may not be online during that period

Massimo

Michel_Krauss · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

It would not supprise me if it turns out to be an German 42mm PaK

Because the 7,5 cm Infantery Geschütz they have is the still only one I know still existing (and the barrel of another one lying inside the building, Walter know's more Wink

)
I have been trying to find some info about it, exisiting or WW2 reference, however there is hardly anything thing that can be found
We have seen this one before here:
www.com-central.net/in...ic&t=12377

Almost forgot, the wheels are from an German halftrack
Because they are rather small, I think an SdKfz 11

Michel

Michel_Krauss · Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

Massimo,

because of your remark about the special/rare guns, I uploaded the picture's I have to my photobucket album

s1015.photobucket.com/...re%20guns/

uploaded picture's of:
- 75mm infanterie geschutz 37 (Schaarsbergen)
- 45 mm anti-tank gun M1937 (53-K)(Overloon)

Warning: all picture's are original size, so size range from 800kb to 3Mb

They are marked, if some one would like to have an "clean" copy let me know Cool

Michel

Walter · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

I got some additional pics of the 7,5 cm Infanterie Geschütz.
They are not very good but you can see how the gun looks from the back.

Walter · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

And some additional pics of the Soviet 45 mm Gun

[img]

And the wheels what originaly belonged to this gun
www.mijnalbum.nl/Grote....jpg[/img]

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Guns at Schaarsbergen (NLD)

Thanks Walter, those wheels match the 45 mm

Massimo

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