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L.Delsing · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Feb 10, 2006 Posts: 960

There was also a lot of former Dutch Waffen SS serving in the Netherlands Indies after the war. Some veterans have a double set of medals, a German one from service on the Eastern front and a set of fighting the so called (in that time) ''peloppers'' in the Netherlands Indies. Once spoke to some who were at the Eastern front and then the jungles of Indonesia. Interesting stories and different times...

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

I had a look at the DLA map catalog for series L7014 TLM50 sheets of Vietnam. Most are editions 1,2 and 3. Considering the production effort, it looks like DMA issued the sheets on the last day of the month, running between 1963 and 1973. One sheet is 1976, and the remaining dates are in the '80's.

TLM50 sheets conform to the NATO specification MGRS grid reference with a 1000m grid and a two-letter 100,000m grid zone designator. What still needs clarification is what is the grid and projection?

Doug, when you look at the surround, what is the datum and projection?

C_Sherman · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 590

- TrevorLarkum

- L.Delsing

In one of the museums there were Kar 98 rifles with waffen ambt markings which were supplied by the USSR and used by the Vietnamese in the war over there.
Regards,
Lesley

That's interesting - I remember being surprised when I read up on the large numbers of ex-Wehrmacht who served in Indo-china for the French.

Hi,

My dad has two of them on the wall at home. One is in fabulous condition (considering the Germany-USSR-North Vietnam-Ho Chi Minh Trail-Tay Ninh path it took) and was taken from a cache near Tay Ninh. The second is in worse condition, having apparently been used by the VC for some time. My Dad traded a modified M16 to a ROK Ranger buddy, who had obtained it when he divided the former owner by 40mm. Both came home in a footlocker (oh, how times have changed!) in 1970. Both still work, although the headspace is really iffy and one badly shows the effects of years of corrosive ammo.

Chuck

Doug_Kibbey

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

I had a look at the DLA map catalog for series L7014 TLM50 sheets of Vietnam. Most are editions 1,2 and 3. Considering the production effort, it looks like DMA issued the sheets on the last day of the month, running between 1963 and 1973. One sheet is 1976, and the remaining dates are in the '80's.

TLM50 sheets conform to the NATO specification MGRS grid reference with a 1000m grid and a two-letter 100,000m grid zone designator. What still needs clarification is what is the grid and projection?

Doug, when you look at the surround, what is the datum and projection?

The 1:250,000 JOG is a transverse mercator and I only have the sheets cobbled together from the sixteenth-to-seventh parallels. I have a full border copied and pasted but no datum is given, only projection. Year is 1972.

I only have sheets for our AO in MRI (most of it) in 1:50,000 and have only assembled a fifteen minute "box" centered just below Hue because on 8.5x11" sheets, that's all that's accommodated by the biggest frame that is economical to buy "off the rack". I have 81 similar sheets in jpg format for the region, but not the margins like for the JOG map.

Likewise, I have a much smaller area for MRIII in 1:100,000, about 25km square and no margin data. Just an immediate AO from about Tay Ninh east to Bien Hoa. Much less complete than the "I"Corps maps.

Both of the above are from scans sent me by sources that prefer not to be identified. Would but that I had the originals, but "I" corps in 50K would be enough to paper two walls with. Rolling Eyes

Thankfully, there is sufficient data on some sheets that I can find coordinates or extrapolate to approximate areas from sheet-to-sheet. I have only printed out those areas most important to me on five framed maps. Everything else I resign myself to viewing electronically (which I can at least magnify as the scans are of good quality).

bsmart

- TrevorLarkum

- L.Delsing

In one of the museums there were Kar 98 rifles with waffen ambt markings which were supplied by the USSR and used by the Vietnamese in the war over there.
Regards,
Lesley

That's interesting - I remember being surprised when I read up on the large numbers of ex-Wehrmacht who served in Indo-china for the French.

And don't forget the Panther tanks that were used there also Rolling Eyes

Although I am sure that there were a fair number of ex Wehrmact and even some ex Waffen SS who fought in indochina I believe the numbers and role have been overstated in several popular 'histories'. Weapons yeas, they show up on second and third hand markets for years but if you believe some of the books that came out there were entire SS battalions employed in Indochina and they would have won the war if it hadn't been for the incompetency of the French high command

TrevorLarkum

- bsmart

And don't forget the Panther tanks that were used there also :roll: Although I am sure that there were a fair number of ex Wehrmact and even some ex Waffen SS who fought in indochina I believe the numbers and role have been overstated in several popular 'histories'. Weapons yeas, they show up on second and third hand markets for years but if you believe some of the books that came out there were entire SS battalions employed in Indochina and they would have won the war if it hadn't been for the incompetency of the French high command

Understood, but the book I was reading was Martin Windrow's epic (700 page) 'The Last Valley' about Dien Bien Phu. On page 198 he writes:

"Legion infantry had a reputation as slightly ponderous but rock-solid troops: ... The belief that their ranks were largely filled with German ex-Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS veterans recruited straight from French prison camps with few questions asked lent them a sinister glamour in the eyes of journalists. This legend had been more credible in 1945-50, but by 1953 [just before Dien Bien Phu] the majority of the original post-war enlistees had departed after serving their five-year contracts, and it was only among senior NCOs that Wehrmacht veterans were found in any concentrated numbers - though these very capable soldiers certainly underpinned the overall quality of many units. Perhaps 50 per cent of the legionnaires in Indochina were still
Germans, but their average age was only 20-23, and Legion commanders often lamented the lack of military experience, training, and even of physical fitness among the later intakes.
"The remainder were of dozens of other nationalities, the Legion tried to limit the proportion of Frenchmen in any unit to perhaps 10 per cent..."

I highly recommend the book, and to anyone who doesn't know the story of Dien Bien Phu it's a heroic, exciting but ultimately tragic tale. The highlight from our point of view would of course be the unique event of M24 'Bison' tanks being flown in to the airstrip and being assembled by hand resulting in the appearance of a significant tank force in the middle of nowhere. The low point being the eventual surrender of the majority of the French force and the withdrawal of part of the garrison all the way back to the border on foot, and losing the majority en route.

Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...n_Bien_Phu

A number of the Chaffees are still there, left in situ.

Doug_Kibbey

- TrevorLarkum

"Perhaps 50 per cent of the legionnaires in Indochina were still
Germans, but their average age was only 20-23, and Legion commanders often lamented the lack of military experience, training, and even of physical fitness among the later intakes."

I'm guessing employment opportunities back in the fatherland were still not all that encouraging 8-9 years post-war.

TrevorLarkum

Exactly my thought. Of course many of the original intakes would have become soldiers straight from school, with no trade to fall back on. Soldiering was all they knew.

Dennis_Smith · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2006 Posts: 192

Sorry to bring back such an old thread, but I saw this book on Amazon and it reminded me of this thread.

It explains the map grid system in use during the Vietnam war. The book includes a number of 1:50,000 maps of Vietnam and directions on where to acquire others.

Where We Were in Vietnam

I linked to the Kindle version because it has the best "Look Inside" preview. Hardcover book version is also available.

Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Folks!

- TrevorLarkum

- L.Delsing

In one of the museums there were Kar 98 rifles with waffen ambt markings which were supplied by the USSR and used by the Vietnamese in the war over there.
Regards,
Lesley

That's interesting - I remember being surprised when I read up on the large numbers of ex-Wehrmacht who served in Indo-china for the French.

I remember reading something a very long time ago about the ex-Wehrmacht in French service. They were WWII POWs of the French and where drafted into the French Army. It was a form of get out of jail option.

Sgt Scouts out!

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