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Pzkpfw-e · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jul 21, 2010 Posts: 1202

- Smashy

A small series of 24 Ausf G were produced in 1944 fitted with the steel road wheels and I think this was one of them.

The 'Panther II' designation may actually be a mistake?

Two different beasties.
The steel wheeled Panther G were used by the LSSAH in the Ardennes,
libellule.heavy.jp/sit...herSW.html

The Panther II was very similar, www.achtungpanzer.com/...her-ii.htm

Panther dimensions
Lenght: 6.88m (w/o the gun)
8.86m (with the gun) 6.88m (w/o the gun)
8.86m (with the gun)
Width: 3.40m 3.40m
Height: 2.98m 2.98m

Panther II Dimensions
Length: 6.60m (w/o the gun)
-.–m (with the gun)
Width: 3.40m
Height: 2.90m

The key is, of course, the Fahrgestell number wrote large across the glacis plate.

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Panther II

- Smashy

A small series of 24 Ausf G were produced in 1944 fitted with the steel road wheels and I think this was one of them.

The 'Panther II' designation may actually be a mistake?

I am not sure I'm following the argument here, or are we talking about different tanks. The tank at Fort Knox doesn't have Panther suspension or Panther steel road wheels, it has Panther II suspension.

Unique ID 71: Fort Knox Panther II

In a nutshell the Panther and Tiger were characterized by interleaved roadwheel suspension and the Panther II and Tiger II were characterized by simpler overlapped suspension.

Dontos · Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Panther II

- Koluchiy

Thank you for answer.
Do you have (or can make) some engine photos?

Koluchiy

I'll try to get some 'open hatch' photos, if I have time on my next 'behind the walls' visit. I generally only have an hour or so of 'play time' when I do my visits. From this, I try to do one or two detailed photo sessions.

This might take a week or two due to a rather long list of 'TO DO' tasks that I am currently working on.

Regards
Don

jtrowbridge5 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 234

the only Panther Schmalturm Turret is at Bovington
Dennis

jtrowbridge5.smugmug.c...oTx#P-1-10

Smashy · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Aug 05, 2010 Posts: 112

We await Dontos's measurement of the armour thickness's....

Some images of the suspension would be nice?

JeffStringer · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 637

Here's some pictures of the suspension www.peachmountain.com/..._tank.aspx and I'm pretty sure the armor thickness is documented somewhere on the Internet.

- Jeff

Dontos · Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Panther II

In a brief conversation with an 'Officially Informed Source', (... an OIS...!?), I inquired about the possibility of a 'wayward' Panther 'G' hull without a turret here at Ft Knox.

Here is what I learned, IRT the 'Story of the Panther II':

When the Panther II was captured, it did not have a turret mounted, but 'weighted' compensation plates in lieu of a turret, for test purposes. It was 'tagged' and transported to APG, where it went through technical inspection.

In the early 70's, the Panther II arrived at Ft Knox. It had a turret, the late model 'G' turret (w/ 'chin' armor).

A project was begun to restore an operational Panther, the Panther II was selected of the two 'Panthers' now at Ft Knox. Both vehicles were totally disassembled, the parts missing from the Panther II, needed for a complete restoration, were to be taken off of the Panther 'G'.

At some point during the restoration, (circa 1973...?)it was found that due to the increased armor of the 'Panther II', certain common hull parts could not be used from the 'donor' Panther. The interior dimensions were different.

The project was eventually completed with the introduction of the operationally restored 'Panther II'.

For some unknown reason, the remaining parts, were crated up and stored, instead of being remounted back into the Panther 'G', resulting in a fairly disassembled 'shell' of a tank, which is the current condition of the Panther 'G'.

So...., if there is (or was) a SN matching Panther ausf G hull to the turret of the Panther II (SN 121455) it would be ( or have been..) at APG.

Regards
Don

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Panther II

Thanks Don, among other things the different interior dimensions confirm it's a Panther II

JeffStringer · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 637

There was never a doubt in my mind.

- Jeff

Massimo_Foti · Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Panther II

- JeffStringer

There was never a doubt in my mind.

Neither in mine, but I try to keep my mind open.

Massimo

Pzkpfw-e · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jul 21, 2010 Posts: 1202

As has been noted before, a quick look at the suspension and a read of the Fr number reveals all.
I've never seen any pictures of it "as captured", with weights, there's several of the VK3001, including some taken at Paderborn (?), where it's lurking behind Bovingdon's Tiger II & Jagdtiger, with its weights mounted.

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Panther II

- Dontos

In a brief conversation with an 'Officially Informed Source', (... an OIS...!?), I inquired about the possibility of a 'wayward' Panther 'G' hull without a turret here at Ft Knox.

Here is what I learned, IRT the 'Story of the Panther II':

When the Panther II was captured, it did not have a turret mounted, but 'weighted' compensation plates in lieu of a turret, for test purposes. It was 'tagged' and transported to APG, where it went through technical inspection.

In the early 70's, the Panther II arrived at Ft Knox. It had a turret, the late model 'G' turret (w/ 'chin' armor).

A project was begun to restore an operational Panther, the Panther II was selected of the two 'Panthers' now at Ft Knox. Both vehicles were totally disassembled, the parts missing from the Panther II, needed for a complete restoration, were to be taken off of the Panther 'G'.

At some point during the restoration, (circa 1973...?)it was found that due to the increased armor of the 'Panther II', certain common hull parts could not be used from the 'donor' Panther. The interior dimensions were different.

The project was eventually completed with the introduction of the operationally restored 'Panther II'.

For some unknown reason, the remaining parts, were crated up and stored, instead of being remounted back into the Panther 'G', resulting in a fairly disassembled 'shell' of a tank, which is the current condition of the Panther 'G'.

So...., if there is (or was) a SN matching Panther ausf G hull to the turret of the Panther II (SN 121455) it would be ( or have been..) at APG.

Regards
Don

"Parts cannibalization" had always been part of my understanding, but didn't know which way the flow was.

In 1971, the only Panther on display was inside the old Patton Museum and I crawled all over it, but took no pictures. It had a fairly complete turret (from the outside) and I think track on both sides. I might be wrong about the track. IIRC, it was gray.

Dontos · Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Panther II

UPDATE:

It seems that during the restoration (in 1973..) when both Panthers were disassembled, there was a 'turret swap'. This is based on information gathered today while in RMP.

The Panther 'G' currently in RMP is officially listed as SN 121455. That is the same Fahrgestell Nr as found on the Panther II turret.

This means that the actual turret on the RMP Panther 'G', is the turret which originally arrived here at Ft Knox with (mounted on...) the Panther II.

It is unknown if the data plates are located in the Panther 'G', but I will try to gain access to the tanks interior to photograph it, and hopefully locate the data plates. Perhaps we can then determine the turret SN, and possibly determine where the turret originated.

BTW: The engine in the Panther II is the rebuilt engine from the Panther 'G'. The original Panther II engine is crated up in storage at RMP.

Obviously, more to follow
Regards
Don

piney · Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Panther II

Here are two pictures from an ebay posting claimed to show the schmalturm reportedly taken to Aberdeen, that has apparently been lost to time

JeffStringer · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 637

But you know, no turret was ever built for the Panther II. It was reported to be similar to the schmalturm being built for the Panther F but the Panther II project was dropped in early 1943 before any of that was developed.

- Jeff

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