Type 59 or Type 69?

[C_Sherman]

Hi,

Question for the experts: How do you tell the difference between a Type 56 and a Type 69?

I took pics today of a tank that is labeled as am Iraqi Type 59 from the Gulf War (ODS). But comparing with other pics from both the same time frame and from the later OIF time frame, it seems identical to others identified as Type 69 . The only difference I could discern was some had the dozer mounts on the front glacis and others didn't, but it didn't seem to be consistent.

Can someone help me? I'm so confused...

Chuck

PS...here's a taste:

[JimWeb]

- C_Sherman

Hi,

Question for the experts: How do you tell the difference between a Type 56 and a Type 69?

I presume you mean Type 59 & 69 - headlight location is the answer.

glacis = Type 59
fenders/catwalks = Type 69

[tanker2010]

The headlights are not the best ID feature. Some Iraqi Type59s had that style of headlights. The main ID feature would be the rear hull. The Type69 has a fan housing like a T62. The Iraqis also added some of the Chicom stuff like the Boom Shield armor and skirts to T55s. If you can get a shot of the rear hull, you can't go wrong with the fan housing.

[toadmanstankpictures]

Hey Chuck,
Did you take this pic at Ft. Lewis? If so, it's a Type69. I took pics of the same tank in either '93:

Type69

[C_Sherman]

- toadmanstankpictures

Hey Chuck,
Did you take this pic at Ft. Lewis? If so, it's a Type69. I took pics of the same tank in either '93:

Type69

Yup, that's the one. It's placarded in two places as a Type 59, but like I said, I have a number of other pictures of very similar tanks IDed as Type 69s.

@ tanker2010: By T62-style fan housing, do you mean the type with the bump for the upper edge of the fan? This has that, and if that is what you mean it must be a Type 69.

What is Boom Shield armor? Is that the slat-type in the pictures, or is that the (presumably) reactive armor in the boxes?

I took a bunch of walk-around/crawl-over pics, because I have a long-stalled project to build one and I needed more info for the slat armor/stowage racks. If anyone is interested, I can put more them up.

For those who have seen this vehicle, is it normal for the turret to appear out-of-place when it is turned to one side or the other? I ask because I noticed that the base of the turret hangs several inches over the hull extensions on one side, and is well inside the hull extension on the other. If the turret is eccentric I can see this being possible, but this case appears to be a bit extreme for only about 45 degrees of turret rotation. my first impulse was that the turret was not actually attached to the hull, and was just set on top slightly out of kilter.

Chuck

[tanker2010]

I guess you're not familiar with ID features on a T62 either. When I say fan housing I'm talking about a rather large bulge on the bottom of the rear hull wall. Yes, Boom Shield armor is the slat type armor on the turret.

[Dontos]

When y'all say "Boom Shield Armor", I assume you mean the 'T55 w/KTO armor'...?



I don't think the armor was ever intended to house any 'special metals' (ie DU,..) it is very basically hollow to add armor protection 'stand off'. I imagine it could have been filled with sand or water to add to the protective properties, but seriously don't think DU was ever an intended 'filler'.

As for Type 69, this is what I know as the Type 69:


Regards
Don

[JimWeb]

- tanker2010

The headlights are not the best ID feature. Some Iraqi Type59s had that style of headlights. The main ID feature would be the rear hull. The Type69 has a fan housing like a T62. The Iraqis also added some of the Chicom stuff like the Boom Shield armor and skirts to T55s. If you can get a shot of the rear hull, you can't go wrong with the fan housing.

The fan housing is a good ID point but people rarely take images of the rear of a vehicle for some strange reason. As regards Iraqi (and that was what we were talking about) Type 59 & Type 69 I have been going through the various technical intelligence documents I have access to and it appears the Iraqis received very few of the Type 59 versions with the headlights on the fenders/catwalks. The number varies, depending on what you read, between 2 - 8 all of which appear to have not survived (though undoubtedly one will turn up somewhere). Nearly all the vehicles identified as Type 59 with the fender headlights are misidentified Type 69 apparently.

The modified T-55s are a good point and AFAIR they were mostly used as command vehicles and have been referred to as T-55 QM

These vehicles really need someone to research them in depth and if anyone has any additional images available I would appreciate them and throw together some sort of guide.

[JimWeb]

- Dontos

When y'all say "Boom Shield Armor", I assume you mean the 'T55 w/KTO armor'...?



I don't think the armor was ever intended to house any 'special metals' (ie DU,..) it is very basically hollow to add armor protection 'stand off'. I imagine it could have been filled with sand or water to add to the protective properties, but seriously don't think DU was ever an intended 'filler'.

Boom Shield are those large gauge meat baskets around the back of the tuttet and, sometime, the metal fence around the frontal portions of the turret.

That isn't KTO armour in the image. Its something the Iraqi Army created - the vehicles are generally referred to as T-55 Enigma despite the fact there are versions based on the Type 59 & 69 as well. The panels were usually filled with sand though baffle plates were also noticed in some.

[JimWeb]

Just when I was about to report that the Type 59 with fender headlights (You know the ones that are unlikely to have survived) up pops this image courtesy of Don..

- Dontos

Rapidly flicking thru the images on JED I came across this one at Duxford..



According to info received from Fort Huachuca the Iraqi Type 59 with fender headlights were delivered with only one set of headlights and the Iraqis fitted a second set with a locally produced square edge protective cover on the other side.

No flaming me if this spoils your or anyone else's preconceived notions of these vehicles please!

I'll be back in a couple of weeks..

[tanker2010]

Nearly all the vehicles identified as Type 59 with the fender headlights are misidentified Type 69 apparently.

Guess you proved your own point. Can't tell because of the tarp on the first pic, but the second is a Type69. You can tell by the square gunner's site. The Type59 had a periscope like the one in front of the loaders position and not the square type site. As I stated before, Boom Shield armor is the slat type as on the Type69 Chuck took pics of.

Type69 turret



Type59 turret



Type69 rear hull

[C_Sherman]

- JimWeb

The fan housing is a good ID point but people rarely take images of the rear of a vehicle for some strange reason.

We'll there's Hertz, and there's not exactly.... I'm "people" and I usually happen to take pictures of the backs of vehicles (does that make me a tank-pervert?):





So this is clearly a T-69, not a T-59 as it is placarded.

More pics:

The serial number on the front plate.


The square sight on the turret.


Casting marks on the back of the turret, which I presume include the manufacture date.


So, there you go.

Chuck

[tanker2010]

So this is clearly a T-69, not a T-59 as it is placarded.

No, it's a Type69. Chicom vehicles are called Type59, Type69, whatever. Russian vehicles are Ts, T54, T55, so on and so forth. Maybe it's a nit picky point but there is a vey big difference in say a Type62 and a T62. So if you were looking for info on the Chicom Type62 and asked people about the Chicom T62 you'd be told they didn't build any.

[C_Sherman]

- tanker2010

So this is clearly a T-69, not a T-59 as it is placarded.

No, it's a Type69. Chicom vehicles are called Type59, Type69, whatever. Russian vehicles are Ts, T54, T55, so on and so forth. Maybe it's a nit picky point but there is a vey big difference in say a Type62 and a T62. So if you were looking for info on the Chicom Type62 and asked people about the Chicom T62 you'd be told they didn't build any.

Gee. Thanks.

[Smashy]

- tanker2010

So this is clearly a T-69, not a T-59 as it is placarded.

No, it's a Type69. Chicom vehicles are called Type59, Type69, whatever. Russian vehicles are Ts, T54, T55, so on and so forth. Maybe it's a nit picky point but there is a vey big difference in say a Type62 and a T62. So if you were looking for info on the Chicom Type62 and asked people about the Chicom T62 you'd be told they didn't build any.

Russian ones are T-54, T-62 and so on. T54, T55. T64 are all american experimental vehicles