±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 409
Total: 409
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Statistics
05: Home
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Downloads
17: Home
18: Member Screenshots
19: Photo Gallery
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Member Screenshots
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Member Screenshots
32: Community Forums
33: Photo Gallery
34: Downloads
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Home
46: Downloads
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: News
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Downloads
67: Home
68: Home
69: Downloads
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Member Screenshots
75: Community Forums
76: Downloads
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: News Archive
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: News
90: Community Forums
91: Photo Gallery
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Home
95: Downloads
96: Photo Gallery
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Photo Gallery
101: Home
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Downloads
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Photo Gallery
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Photo Gallery
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Member Screenshots
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: Member Screenshots
144: Home
145: Home
146: Home
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Member Screenshots
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Home
159: Home
160: Home
161: Member Screenshots
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Member Screenshots
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Home
170: Home
171: News
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Downloads
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Photo Gallery
180: News Archive
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Home
184: Your Account
185: Home
186: Photo Gallery
187: Home
188: Home
189: Member Screenshots
190: Home
191: Photo Gallery
192: Home
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Home
200: Home
201: Your Account
202: Member Screenshots
203: Community Forums
204: Home
205: Home
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Home
209: Community Forums
210: News
211: Home
212: Member Screenshots
213: Home
214: Photo Gallery
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: News Archive
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Home
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Photo Gallery
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Member Screenshots
236: Photo Gallery
237: Home
238: Photo Gallery
239: Statistics
240: Community Forums
241: News
242: Community Forums
243: Photo Gallery
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: News Archive
248: Community Forums
249: Home
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Home
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: News
259: Home
260: Community Forums
261: Home
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Home
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: News
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Downloads
281: Home
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Home
285: Home
286: Home
287: Photo Gallery
288: Downloads
289: Home
290: Photo Gallery
291: Home
292: News
293: Home
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Home
297: Home
298: Home
299: News Archive
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Member Screenshots
306: Community Forums
307: Member Screenshots
308: Member Screenshots
309: Home
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Home
313: Home
314: Home
315: Downloads
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Home
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Your Account
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: News Archive
338: Home
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Photo Gallery
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Statistics
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Photo Gallery
351: News Archive
352: Photo Gallery
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Home
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Member Screenshots
361: Community Forums
362: Downloads
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Photo Gallery
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: News
375: Community Forums
376: Member Screenshots
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Member Screenshots
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: News Archive
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Photo Gallery
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Member Screenshots
395: Community Forums
396: Photo Gallery
397: News Archive
398: Home
399: Photo Gallery
400: Member Screenshots
401: Home
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: Photo Gallery
406: Community Forums
407: Photo Gallery
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
British names for M4 medium tanks
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:52 am
Post subject: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Folks!

I am working on a listing of British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.

I am missing one name. While working my way through all the name for the different versions, I notice one vehicle that I have not been able to find a British name for.
I find that odd sense they named vehicles they never used and in a few cases were never build. For one example the M4A6 75mm version rearmed with 17 pdr AT gun!

I can not find a name for one vehicle that was built base on a British idea that just such a vehicle would be needed to attack the West Wall Fortications. The M4A3E2, which after the war became known by the nickname Jumbo.

Did the British miss this one or am I missing something?
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Smashy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 05, 2010
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:57 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!

I am working on a listing of British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.

I am missing one name. While working my way through all the name for the different versions, I notice one vehicle that I have not been able to find a British name for.
I find that odd sense they named vehicles they never used and in a few cases were never build. For one example the M4A6 75mm version rearmed with 17 pdr AT gun!



You mean the Sherman VIIC?



I can not find a name for one vehicle that was build base one a British idea that just such a vehicle would be needed to attack the West Wall Fortications. The M4A3E2, which after the war became known by the nickname Jumbo.

Did the British miss this one or am I missing something?


With the availability of the Churchill I don't think the brits saw the need to buy this variant.

_________________
Smashy
Back to top
View user's profile
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:29 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

I doubt the M4A3E2 was ever offered to Britain.
They were all Shermans to the British Army, regardless of type.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Smashy! Hi Folks!

- Smashy

You mean the Sherman VIIC?


Sorry I guess I wasn't clear enough. I was using it as an example of a vehicle that was build in very limited numbers, never used by any one outside the states, but yet the British named the M4A6 75mm the Sherman Mark VII and then went on to name a M4A6 17 pdr the Sherman Mark VIIC.

- Smashy

With the availability of the Churchill I don't think the brits saw the need to buy this variant.


I can see your point about the Churchill, but the British assigned Mark numbers to every version including all of the ones they did not get/request/never built or used. Another example is the Sherman Mark IIB. A M4A1 with a 105mm how! Because of the gun mount, this was something that was possible, but AFAIK, this version was never put together. Again, the Sherman Mark IVB, the M4A3 with a 105mm how. A version that was built, but they never used.

That is my problem, a version that was built, but one the British never used, and never assigned a Mark number to. So my question about the M4A3E2, Did the British miss this one or am I missing something?

Sgt, Scouts out!!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Tankbarrell! Hi Folks!

- tankbarrell

I doubt the M4A3E2 was ever offered to Britain.


Very possible, I don't know. I do know the M4A3 75/76s were never offered.

- tankbarrell

They were all Shermans to the British Army, regardless of type.


I would like to suggest you check out "the Sherman, An Illustrated History of the M4 Medium Tank by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis. A very old book, might be impossible to find.

R.P. Hunnicutt's Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank has a lot of the British Mark numbers but not all of them. Very costly book now days, maybe the local library might have one.

There are 20 M4 versions the British named "Sherman Mark ### (### = Roman numeral). Counting the M4A3E2 there are 21 versions of the M4 medium tank and there is my problem, 20 Mark numbers, 21 versions.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Not sure what you are trying to prove. I have compiled a list of all British designations for US medium tanks and related AFVs:
web.inter.nl.net/users...bdesig.htm
"Paper" designations - i.e. given to tanks which were never supplied - are not listed to prevent confusion.

The British used 5 marks of Sherman. There are some sources stating stuff like "Sherman VI - M4A5 (paper designation to prevent confusion with Canadian production)" which is nonsense as the Ram Cruiser tank got the M4A5 paper designation. And "Sherman VII" for M4A6 which was not delivered. Where do the other Mark ### refer to?

HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:39 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

The M4A3E2 was a Limited Procurement Item for the USA. It may have just been too far out of reach to designate. Things like the M4A6 17lb are not unexpected because it was just extending an existing nomenclature scheme and there was no real harm in designating something that might be coming.

They could've just goofed up. After all, the US designation system used in WW II had been in place for over 10 years when the war started and they still hosed up tank designations. Diesel M3s should have been M3B1s. M4A3s should've been the M4B3. Large hatch hulls, 76mm, 105mm, and HVSS tanks should've been A1s, A2s, A3s, and A4s.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Hanno! Hi Folks!

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Not sure what you are trying to prove.
"Paper" designations - i.e. given to tanks which were never supplied - are not listed to prevent confusion.
Where do the other Mark ### refer to?
Hanno


I am just trying to fill a couple of gaps. I am putting together a list for the Staff at the Fort Bliss museum to help ex-duck hunters get up speed on AFV facts. I will have to think about your idea for the "Paper" names. I guess I am going over board and maybe I need to cut back to reduce "confusion". The other marks I have are:

Mark IIB M4A1 105mm and IIC 17 pdr
Mark IVA M4A3 76, IVB w/105mm, and IVC w/17 pdr, Where is the M4A3E2 which I am guessing might have been a Mark IVD?
Mark V (Guards) M4A4 75 with Typhoon rocket launcher rails

Most of these came from Chamberlain and Ellis's book.

Still confuzed about the Sherman! PS Thanks for reminding me about your Sherman site.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:35 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
I am just trying to fill a couple of gaps. I am putting together a list for the Staff at the Fort Bliss museum to help ex-duck hunters get up speed on AFV facts. I will have to think about your idea for the "Paper" names. I guess I am going over board and maybe I need to cut back to reduce "confusion". The other marks I have are:

Mark IIB M4A1 105mm and IIC 17 pdr
Mark IVA M4A3 76, IVB w/105mm, and IVC w/17 pdr, Where is the M4A3E2 which I am guessing might have been a Mark IVD?
Mark V (Guards) M4A4 75 with Typhoon rocket launcher rails

Most of these came from Chamberlain and Ellis's book.

Still confuzed about the Sherman! PS Thanks for reminding me about your Sherman site.


Hi Roy,

Being confused about the Sherman is understandable. Many people have been and still are. When Chamberlain and Ellis were writing their books not everything was known what we know today. What I am trying to say is that in their time they were good books, but ongoing Sherman research has proven they were wrong in some cases.

Like Kurt says, the people shifting paper in the UK were merely extending an existing nomenclature scheme, and they often did so a long time before the tanks they designated actually became available. Some of the Shermans they made up a designation for never made it into mass production.

So when I compiled my list of British designations for US medium tanks and related AFVs from original source material, I did so with the benefit of hindsight and removed all the ones which did not make it into production and/or actual use. No-one is really interested to know what the paper pushers were dreaming up one day and discarding the next, are they?

If I may give you some advice: please do yourself and the people you are trying to educate a favour, and stick to what has been researched and documented already. Not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but I compiled that list and published it on my website as this information is not (correctly) covered in mainstream books or magazines.

HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:33 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Tankbarrell! Hi Folks!

- tankbarrell

I doubt the M4A3E2 was ever offered to Britain.


Very possible, I don't know. I do know the M4A3 75/76s were never offered.

- tankbarrell

They were all Shermans to the British Army, regardless of type.


I would like to suggest you check out "the Sherman, An Illustrated History of the M4 Medium Tank by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis. A very old book, might be impossible to find.

R.P. Hunnicutt's Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank has a lot of the British Mark numbers but not all of them. Very costly book now days, maybe the local library might have one.

There are 20 M4 versions the British named "Sherman Mark ### (### = Roman numeral). Counting the M4A3E2 there are 21 versions of the M4 medium tank and there is my problem, 20 Mark numbers, 21 versions.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!


Thanks, I've had those for over 20 years, about the same number of years I've had my Sherman V!

What I was referring to was your opening statement of ''British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.''

The only name assigned to the gun tanks was Sherman.
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:13 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

I think there is some purpose served with discussing potential designations of variants not actually delivered to the British (or any other user) of a given tank. But in doing that I think the purpose and methodology of those designations needs to be kept in mind

As I interpret the British designations the Roman numeral indicated the primary version similar to the 'A' number of the American designation. The letter following the Roman numeral indicates the main gun installed with C for the 17 pdr being the most frequently seen.

I'm not sure the British used anything similar to the E designator of subtypes that the Americans used.

I think the M4A3E2 was a limited production subtype that were fully allocated so quickly to American units that the British never had a need to create a designation.

All this said I generally agree with Hanno about not confusing newcomers with the esoteric details that may be purely theoretical.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Tankbarrell! Hi Folks!

- tankbarrell

Thanks, I've had those for over 20 years, about the same number of years I've had my Sherman V!

What I was referring to was your opening statement of ''British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.''

The only name assigned to the gun tanks was Sherman.


I am sorry Tankbarrel! Now I understand your response and once again my muddy thinking and my poor writting skills have tripped me up.

You own a 1-1 scale Sherman V? I am so jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank You, Sir.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:14 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Hanno! Hi Folks!

- Hanno_Spoelstra

When Chamberlain and Ellis were writing their books not everything was known what we know today. ...... they were good books, but ongoing Sherman research has proven they were wrong in some cases.


It sounds like it is time to do some house clearing and make the wife happy. It's seams like every book I buy is wrong. O'well I can use the shelfs to display more 1/35 scale models. If my books are wrong, then that means a lot of the models are also wrong?

- Hanno_Spoelstra

No-one is really interested to know what the paper pushers were dreaming up one day and discarding the next, are they?


No-one? I was, that is why I made the mistake of asking, sorry.

- Hanno_Spoelstra

....... and stick to what has been researched and documented already.


I do not have the option any longer of tracking down original source documention and was relaying on published books. Books I am learning are wrong every time I turn around. Books it seams I have wasted my money buying and my time reading. Sorry I bothered you all.
Sgt, Scouts out.

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:58 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
I am sorry Tankbarrel!


No need Roy, I'm only pulling you leg! Twisted Evil

Yes I do have a Sherman V, restored from a wreck off an artillery range. It took me 4500 hrs of work and several years looking for parts.

Many of the mistakes written in earlier books get copied by later authors. That said, Hunnicutt is the reference, I refer to it all the time. I wouldn't worry about clearing out old books, they have a certain charm, especially when you are aware of the errors!

Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:28 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
No-one? I was, that is why I made the mistake of asking, sorry.


I am sorry Roy, but I understood you wanted to make a listing of British names assigned to the M4-series AFVs. That is what I provided you with.

Now I understand you (also) want to trace back all the steps taken of how the final result was attained? And have an answer why certain existing subtypes did not get a British designation, while others that did not make it into production did? If you want I can have a look if I still have copies of the material I used (though it might take a while as it is stored away), but I doubt it provides all the answers you're looking for.

Regards,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum