±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 394
Total: 394
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: News Archive
02: News Archive
03: Member Screenshots
04: News Archive
05: Home
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: News Archive
10: Community Forums
11: Your Account
12: News Archive
13: Member Screenshots
14: News Archive
15: News Archive
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Member Screenshots
23: Member Screenshots
24: Member Screenshots
25: News Archive
26: News Archive
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Member Screenshots
30: Community Forums
31: Member Screenshots
32: Member Screenshots
33: Home
34: Member Screenshots
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Home
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Home
44: Supporters
45: Photo Gallery
46: News Archive
47: Member Screenshots
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Home
53: Home
54: Photo Gallery
55: LinkToUs
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Home
59: Member Screenshots
60: Home
61: Member Screenshots
62: News Archive
63: Member Screenshots
64: Community Forums
65: Member Screenshots
66: News Archive
67: Home
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Member Screenshots
71: Home
72: Home
73: Photo Gallery
74: Photo Gallery
75: LinkToUs
76: Community Forums
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Your Account
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Member Screenshots
83: Community Forums
84: Downloads
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Home
89: Home
90: Your Account
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Member Screenshots
94: Member Screenshots
95: Photo Gallery
96: News Archive
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Photo Gallery
100: Member Screenshots
101: Home
102: Member Screenshots
103: Home
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Member Screenshots
108: Downloads
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Home
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Downloads
117: Photo Gallery
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Member Screenshots
122: Member Screenshots
123: Home
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Downloads
127: Member Screenshots
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Home
132: Home
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Home
136: Home
137: Member Screenshots
138: Photo Gallery
139: Home
140: News
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Downloads
145: Home
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Photo Gallery
149: Community Forums
150: News
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: Home
155: Home
156: Home
157: Home
158: News
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Treasury
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: News Archive
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: News Archive
175: Member Screenshots
176: Home
177: Photo Gallery
178: Home
179: Tell a Friend
180: News Archive
181: Home
182: Member Screenshots
183: Photo Gallery
184: News Archive
185: Home
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: News Archive
189: Home
190: Your Account
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Your Account
195: News Archive
196: Member Screenshots
197: Member Screenshots
198: Home
199: Home
200: Home
201: Photo Gallery
202: Home
203: Home
204: Photo Gallery
205: Member Screenshots
206: News Archive
207: News Archive
208: Member Screenshots
209: Photo Gallery
210: News Archive
211: Member Screenshots
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Member Screenshots
216: Home
217: Home
218: Member Screenshots
219: Member Screenshots
220: Downloads
221: Community Forums
222: Member Screenshots
223: Member Screenshots
224: News Archive
225: Photo Gallery
226: News Archive
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Member Screenshots
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: News Archive
238: Community Forums
239: Member Screenshots
240: Member Screenshots
241: Community Forums
242: News Archive
243: Home
244: Supporters
245: Member Screenshots
246: Home
247: Home
248: Search
249: Home
250: Community Forums
251: Your Account
252: Community Forums
253: Home
254: Photo Gallery
255: Home
256: Member Screenshots
257: Community Forums
258: News Archive
259: Downloads
260: News Archive
261: Downloads
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Downloads
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Home
274: Your Account
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Home
280: Photo Gallery
281: Home
282: Home
283: Your Account
284: Home
285: Home
286: Photo Gallery
287: Your Account
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Downloads
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Statistics
296: Home
297: Member Screenshots
298: Member Screenshots
299: Photo Gallery
300: Photo Gallery
301: Home
302: News Archive
303: Community Forums
304: News Archive
305: Member Screenshots
306: LinkToUs
307: Community Forums
308: News Archive
309: Member Screenshots
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Home
313: Home
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: Home
317: Photo Gallery
318: Home
319: Home
320: Photo Gallery
321: Community Forums
322: Treasury
323: News Archive
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Home
330: Home
331: Home
332: Photo Gallery
333: Home
334: Community Forums
335: Statistics
336: Home
337: Member Screenshots
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Home
342: Downloads
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Downloads
350: Home
351: Member Screenshots
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: News
355: Community Forums
356: News Archive
357: Home
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Home
361: Community Forums
362: News
363: Photo Gallery
364: Community Forums
365: Statistics
366: Home
367: Member Screenshots
368: Member Screenshots
369: Statistics
370: Member Screenshots
371: Photo Gallery
372: Photo Gallery
373: Member Screenshots
374: News Archive
375: Community Forums
376: News Archive
377: Your Account
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Member Screenshots
381: Photo Gallery
382: Home
383: Home
384: Statistics
385: Photo Gallery
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
British names for M4 medium tanks
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:52 am
Post subject: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Folks!

I am working on a listing of British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.

I am missing one name. While working my way through all the name for the different versions, I notice one vehicle that I have not been able to find a British name for.
I find that odd sense they named vehicles they never used and in a few cases were never build. For one example the M4A6 75mm version rearmed with 17 pdr AT gun!

I can not find a name for one vehicle that was built base on a British idea that just such a vehicle would be needed to attack the West Wall Fortications. The M4A3E2, which after the war became known by the nickname Jumbo.

Did the British miss this one or am I missing something?
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Smashy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 05, 2010
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:57 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!

I am working on a listing of British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.

I am missing one name. While working my way through all the name for the different versions, I notice one vehicle that I have not been able to find a British name for.
I find that odd sense they named vehicles they never used and in a few cases were never build. For one example the M4A6 75mm version rearmed with 17 pdr AT gun!



You mean the Sherman VIIC?



I can not find a name for one vehicle that was build base one a British idea that just such a vehicle would be needed to attack the West Wall Fortications. The M4A3E2, which after the war became known by the nickname Jumbo.

Did the British miss this one or am I missing something?


With the availability of the Churchill I don't think the brits saw the need to buy this variant.

_________________
Smashy
Back to top
View user's profile
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:29 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

I doubt the M4A3E2 was ever offered to Britain.
They were all Shermans to the British Army, regardless of type.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Smashy! Hi Folks!

- Smashy

You mean the Sherman VIIC?


Sorry I guess I wasn't clear enough. I was using it as an example of a vehicle that was build in very limited numbers, never used by any one outside the states, but yet the British named the M4A6 75mm the Sherman Mark VII and then went on to name a M4A6 17 pdr the Sherman Mark VIIC.

- Smashy

With the availability of the Churchill I don't think the brits saw the need to buy this variant.


I can see your point about the Churchill, but the British assigned Mark numbers to every version including all of the ones they did not get/request/never built or used. Another example is the Sherman Mark IIB. A M4A1 with a 105mm how! Because of the gun mount, this was something that was possible, but AFAIK, this version was never put together. Again, the Sherman Mark IVB, the M4A3 with a 105mm how. A version that was built, but they never used.

That is my problem, a version that was built, but one the British never used, and never assigned a Mark number to. So my question about the M4A3E2, Did the British miss this one or am I missing something?

Sgt, Scouts out!!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Tankbarrell! Hi Folks!

- tankbarrell

I doubt the M4A3E2 was ever offered to Britain.


Very possible, I don't know. I do know the M4A3 75/76s were never offered.

- tankbarrell

They were all Shermans to the British Army, regardless of type.


I would like to suggest you check out "the Sherman, An Illustrated History of the M4 Medium Tank by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis. A very old book, might be impossible to find.

R.P. Hunnicutt's Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank has a lot of the British Mark numbers but not all of them. Very costly book now days, maybe the local library might have one.

There are 20 M4 versions the British named "Sherman Mark ### (### = Roman numeral). Counting the M4A3E2 there are 21 versions of the M4 medium tank and there is my problem, 20 Mark numbers, 21 versions.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Not sure what you are trying to prove. I have compiled a list of all British designations for US medium tanks and related AFVs:
web.inter.nl.net/users...bdesig.htm
"Paper" designations - i.e. given to tanks which were never supplied - are not listed to prevent confusion.

The British used 5 marks of Sherman. There are some sources stating stuff like "Sherman VI - M4A5 (paper designation to prevent confusion with Canadian production)" which is nonsense as the Ram Cruiser tank got the M4A5 paper designation. And "Sherman VII" for M4A6 which was not delivered. Where do the other Mark ### refer to?

HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:39 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

The M4A3E2 was a Limited Procurement Item for the USA. It may have just been too far out of reach to designate. Things like the M4A6 17lb are not unexpected because it was just extending an existing nomenclature scheme and there was no real harm in designating something that might be coming.

They could've just goofed up. After all, the US designation system used in WW II had been in place for over 10 years when the war started and they still hosed up tank designations. Diesel M3s should have been M3B1s. M4A3s should've been the M4B3. Large hatch hulls, 76mm, 105mm, and HVSS tanks should've been A1s, A2s, A3s, and A4s.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Hanno! Hi Folks!

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Not sure what you are trying to prove.
"Paper" designations - i.e. given to tanks which were never supplied - are not listed to prevent confusion.
Where do the other Mark ### refer to?
Hanno


I am just trying to fill a couple of gaps. I am putting together a list for the Staff at the Fort Bliss museum to help ex-duck hunters get up speed on AFV facts. I will have to think about your idea for the "Paper" names. I guess I am going over board and maybe I need to cut back to reduce "confusion". The other marks I have are:

Mark IIB M4A1 105mm and IIC 17 pdr
Mark IVA M4A3 76, IVB w/105mm, and IVC w/17 pdr, Where is the M4A3E2 which I am guessing might have been a Mark IVD?
Mark V (Guards) M4A4 75 with Typhoon rocket launcher rails

Most of these came from Chamberlain and Ellis's book.

Still confuzed about the Sherman! PS Thanks for reminding me about your Sherman site.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:35 am
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
I am just trying to fill a couple of gaps. I am putting together a list for the Staff at the Fort Bliss museum to help ex-duck hunters get up speed on AFV facts. I will have to think about your idea for the "Paper" names. I guess I am going over board and maybe I need to cut back to reduce "confusion". The other marks I have are:

Mark IIB M4A1 105mm and IIC 17 pdr
Mark IVA M4A3 76, IVB w/105mm, and IVC w/17 pdr, Where is the M4A3E2 which I am guessing might have been a Mark IVD?
Mark V (Guards) M4A4 75 with Typhoon rocket launcher rails

Most of these came from Chamberlain and Ellis's book.

Still confuzed about the Sherman! PS Thanks for reminding me about your Sherman site.


Hi Roy,

Being confused about the Sherman is understandable. Many people have been and still are. When Chamberlain and Ellis were writing their books not everything was known what we know today. What I am trying to say is that in their time they were good books, but ongoing Sherman research has proven they were wrong in some cases.

Like Kurt says, the people shifting paper in the UK were merely extending an existing nomenclature scheme, and they often did so a long time before the tanks they designated actually became available. Some of the Shermans they made up a designation for never made it into mass production.

So when I compiled my list of British designations for US medium tanks and related AFVs from original source material, I did so with the benefit of hindsight and removed all the ones which did not make it into production and/or actual use. No-one is really interested to know what the paper pushers were dreaming up one day and discarding the next, are they?

If I may give you some advice: please do yourself and the people you are trying to educate a favour, and stick to what has been researched and documented already. Not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but I compiled that list and published it on my website as this information is not (correctly) covered in mainstream books or magazines.

HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:33 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Tankbarrell! Hi Folks!

- tankbarrell

I doubt the M4A3E2 was ever offered to Britain.


Very possible, I don't know. I do know the M4A3 75/76s were never offered.

- tankbarrell

They were all Shermans to the British Army, regardless of type.


I would like to suggest you check out "the Sherman, An Illustrated History of the M4 Medium Tank by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis. A very old book, might be impossible to find.

R.P. Hunnicutt's Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank has a lot of the British Mark numbers but not all of them. Very costly book now days, maybe the local library might have one.

There are 20 M4 versions the British named "Sherman Mark ### (### = Roman numeral). Counting the M4A3E2 there are 21 versions of the M4 medium tank and there is my problem, 20 Mark numbers, 21 versions.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!


Thanks, I've had those for over 20 years, about the same number of years I've had my Sherman V!

What I was referring to was your opening statement of ''British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.''

The only name assigned to the gun tanks was Sherman.
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:13 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

I think there is some purpose served with discussing potential designations of variants not actually delivered to the British (or any other user) of a given tank. But in doing that I think the purpose and methodology of those designations needs to be kept in mind

As I interpret the British designations the Roman numeral indicated the primary version similar to the 'A' number of the American designation. The letter following the Roman numeral indicates the main gun installed with C for the 17 pdr being the most frequently seen.

I'm not sure the British used anything similar to the E designator of subtypes that the Americans used.

I think the M4A3E2 was a limited production subtype that were fully allocated so quickly to American units that the British never had a need to create a designation.

All this said I generally agree with Hanno about not confusing newcomers with the esoteric details that may be purely theoretical.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Tankbarrell! Hi Folks!

- tankbarrell

Thanks, I've had those for over 20 years, about the same number of years I've had my Sherman V!

What I was referring to was your opening statement of ''British names assigned to the M4 FOV of vehicles.''

The only name assigned to the gun tanks was Sherman.


I am sorry Tankbarrel! Now I understand your response and once again my muddy thinking and my poor writting skills have tripped me up.

You own a 1-1 scale Sherman V? I am so jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank You, Sir.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:14 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

Hi Hanno! Hi Folks!

- Hanno_Spoelstra

When Chamberlain and Ellis were writing their books not everything was known what we know today. ...... they were good books, but ongoing Sherman research has proven they were wrong in some cases.


It sounds like it is time to do some house clearing and make the wife happy. It's seams like every book I buy is wrong. O'well I can use the shelfs to display more 1/35 scale models. If my books are wrong, then that means a lot of the models are also wrong?

- Hanno_Spoelstra

No-one is really interested to know what the paper pushers were dreaming up one day and discarding the next, are they?


No-one? I was, that is why I made the mistake of asking, sorry.

- Hanno_Spoelstra

....... and stick to what has been researched and documented already.


I do not have the option any longer of tracking down original source documention and was relaying on published books. Books I am learning are wrong every time I turn around. Books it seams I have wasted my money buying and my time reading. Sorry I bothered you all.
Sgt, Scouts out.

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:58 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
I am sorry Tankbarrel!


No need Roy, I'm only pulling you leg! Twisted Evil

Yes I do have a Sherman V, restored from a wreck off an artillery range. It took me 4500 hrs of work and several years looking for parts.

Many of the mistakes written in earlier books get copied by later authors. That said, Hunnicutt is the reference, I refer to it all the time. I wouldn't worry about clearing out old books, they have a certain charm, especially when you are aware of the errors!

Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:28 pm
Post subject: Re: British names for M4 medium tanks

- Roy_A_Lingle
No-one? I was, that is why I made the mistake of asking, sorry.


I am sorry Roy, but I understood you wanted to make a listing of British names assigned to the M4-series AFVs. That is what I provided you with.

Now I understand you (also) want to trace back all the steps taken of how the final result was attained? And have an answer why certain existing subtypes did not get a British designation, while others that did not make it into production did? If you want I can have a look if I still have copies of the material I used (though it might take a while as it is stored away), but I doubt it provides all the answers you're looking for.

Regards,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum