±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 652
Total: 652
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Member Screenshots
04: Community Forums
05: News Archive
06: Community Forums
07: Member Screenshots
08: Member Screenshots
09: Home
10: Treasury
11: Community Forums
12: Home
13: Photo Gallery
14: Photo Gallery
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: LinkToUs
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: News Archive
27: Downloads
28: Community Forums
29: Downloads
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Downloads
37: Home
38: Home
39: Home
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: News
45: News
46: Community Forums
47: News Archive
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Downloads
55: Community Forums
56: Member Screenshots
57: News
58: Home
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Home
68: Photo Gallery
69: Member Screenshots
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: News
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Home
84: Photo Gallery
85: Member Screenshots
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Member Screenshots
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: News Archive
95: Member Screenshots
96: Downloads
97: Your Account
98: News Archive
99: Home
100: Downloads
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Home
110: Home
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Home
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Home
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Home
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Your Account
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Member Screenshots
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Home
152: Downloads
153: Member Screenshots
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Member Screenshots
158: Community Forums
159: Member Screenshots
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Member Screenshots
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Member Screenshots
171: Home
172: Home
173: Photo Gallery
174: Community Forums
175: LinkToUs
176: Home
177: Downloads
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Downloads
181: Community Forums
182: Downloads
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Member Screenshots
188: Home
189: Home
190: Member Screenshots
191: Community Forums
192: Statistics
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Home
197: Photo Gallery
198: Member Screenshots
199: Home
200: Community Forums
201: News
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Home
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Home
208: Member Screenshots
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Downloads
214: Home
215: Home
216: Home
217: Home
218: Downloads
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Downloads
223: Community Forums
224: Home
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Member Screenshots
234: Supporters
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Member Screenshots
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: News
242: Home
243: News Archive
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: LinkToUs
247: Photo Gallery
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Member Screenshots
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Your Account
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Photo Gallery
278: News
279: Community Forums
280: Home
281: Member Screenshots
282: Community Forums
283: Member Screenshots
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Home
287: Photo Gallery
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Statistics
295: Home
296: Community Forums
297: Member Screenshots
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Downloads
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Member Screenshots
309: Member Screenshots
310: Community Forums
311: Downloads
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Downloads
316: Community Forums
317: Search
318: Community Forums
319: Member Screenshots
320: Home
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Your Account
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Community Forums
332: Downloads
333: Photo Gallery
334: Home
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Member Screenshots
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Your Account
344: Community Forums
345: Home
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Home
350: Member Screenshots
351: Statistics
352: Community Forums
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Downloads
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: News Archive
360: Home
361: Home
362: Member Screenshots
363: Home
364: Home
365: Member Screenshots
366: Home
367: Photo Gallery
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Your Account
371: Home
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: News Archive
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Home
381: Member Screenshots
382: Home
383: Search
384: Community Forums
385: Home
386: Home
387: Member Screenshots
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Home
392: Your Account
393: Community Forums
394: Your Account
395: Home
396: Photo Gallery
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Home
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: News
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Home
407: Photo Gallery
408: News
409: Community Forums
410: Home
411: Downloads
412: Downloads
413: Community Forums
414: Home
415: Member Screenshots
416: Home
417: Downloads
418: Community Forums
419: Member Screenshots
420: Downloads
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Downloads
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Home
435: Downloads
436: Member Screenshots
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Home
440: Home
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Home
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Home
448: Member Screenshots
449: Downloads
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Home
454: Home
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Home
458: Community Forums
459: Member Screenshots
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Home
468: Home
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Member Screenshots
472: Community Forums
473: Member Screenshots
474: Member Screenshots
475: Home
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Home
479: Home
480: Home
481: Community Forums
482: Downloads
483: Home
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Member Screenshots
488: Member Screenshots
489: Your Account
490: Home
491: Home
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Home
499: Community Forums
500: Home
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Home
511: News
512: Member Screenshots
513: Home
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Home
519: Community Forums
520: News Archive
521: Community Forums
522: News Archive
523: Downloads
524: Member Screenshots
525: Home
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Downloads
530: Home
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Home
534: Photo Gallery
535: Member Screenshots
536: Home
537: Community Forums
538: Home
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Home
545: Home
546: Community Forums
547: Home
548: Home
549: Home
550: Treasury
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Member Screenshots
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Photo Gallery
557: Community Forums
558: Member Screenshots
559: Community Forums
560: Member Screenshots
561: Member Screenshots
562: Home
563: Community Forums
564: Home
565: Community Forums
566: Photo Gallery
567: Home
568: Photo Gallery
569: Member Screenshots
570: Your Account
571: Home
572: Photo Gallery
573: Home
574: Statistics
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Home
579: Community Forums
580: Home
581: Home
582: Community Forums
583: Home
584: Home
585: Community Forums
586: Photo Gallery
587: Home
588: Community Forums
589: Home
590: Home
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: Your Account
594: Member Screenshots
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Community Forums
598: Downloads
599: Community Forums
600: Statistics
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Home
604: Community Forums
605: News
606: Downloads
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Member Screenshots
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Home
613: Community Forums
614: Home
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Photo Gallery
620: Community Forums
621: Home
622: Home
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: Home
626: Downloads
627: Downloads
628: Downloads
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Home
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Home
639: Community Forums
640: News Archive
641: Community Forums
642: Photo Gallery
643: Home
644: Member Screenshots
645: Community Forums
646: Home
647: Community Forums
648: Home
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Home
652: Treasury

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Question for the Sherman gurus...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

The line is thin but clearly visible in my opinion: the starting point is the gun. Firefly is a popular name for the Sherman tanks converted with a 17-pdr AT gun. So, if no 17-pdr gun, the Sherman is not a Firefly.

Of course Trevor can use any set of rules to categorize his database. After people start swapping hulls, turrets, guns, engines, in my database I simple refer to those hodgepodge tanks as "Sherman", as they are nothing more than that. And for many people it is enough to see "a Sherman tank".

Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
So, if no 17-pdr gun, the Sherman is not a Firefly.


What about an original 17-pdr gun turret on top of an hull that spots none of the Firefly's unique features, like the revised ammo storage?
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Massimo_Foti
What about an original 17-pdr gun turret on top of an hull that spots none of the Firefly's unique features, like the revised ammo storage?


That I would describe as "a Sherman" Wink

As a curator I would place a sign describing of which components this Sherman was made up of, and why. I would definitely not label this as a "Sherman Firefly" but a M4A(x) Medium Tank with a Firefly turret, or even, a turret with 17-pdr gun.
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
That I would describe as "a Sherman" Wink


You can't have it that easy, you know Laughing


- Hanno_Spoelstra
As a curator I would place a sign describing of which components this Sherman was made up of, and why.


These days we are lucky if we can identify "which", "why" often remains a question without an answer, just like the tank in "Museo Carristi". We know that after WW II the Italian Army assembled Shermans out of anything available. At one point some turrets were used for fortifications. Later spare hulls were mixed with other turrets just for display/preservation purposes (most likely the case for the Sherman in Bologna).

Again, my point is that any categorization is arbitrary, but categorization are a necessity, so we have to live with the trade-off.

Massimo

PS You still have to tell me if a Sherman Firefly should be considered american or british Mr. Green
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Actually, the thrust of my original question: "For Fireflies that had the 17lb. gun changed (or never actually installed) is there a visual cue that says "Yep, that was intended to be, or was at one time, a "Firefly"?"

...was intended to help me distinguish all other Shermans that had been modified from Fireflies that had been modified...so the presence or absence of the 17 pounder in later years is not what I was hoping to have as a criteria. In particular, I'm trying to distinguish between Argentina's many "repotenciados" many, if not most of which originated as Fireflies. For the ones that didn't have that origin, I'm wondering how one would tell.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

That was indeed an interesting question Doug. But we failed to resist the temptation to side-track the thread... Sorry

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Back to Doug's question. The original discussion around the Sherman in Rome was lost during a server crash here. But some comments are still available on Trevor's website and could help:
preservedtanks.com/Pro...4&Select=4

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Massimo_Foti
That was indeed an interesting question Doug. But we failed to resist the temptation to side-track the thread... Sorry

Massimo


Dangerous thread swerves are just an everyday hazard at the DG. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Trevor, we don't need curators' descriptions, they are notoriously bad as they don't wear anoraks like we do :lol:


True, but my point is that museums need to start caring about provenance, and that means starting with the serial number and researching a vehicle's history. It shouldn't be us doing their job for them. If it was an aircraft you can be sure they'd make more effort.


- Hanno_Spoelstra
A Firefly has a 17-pounder gun with all the amenities described above. So if someone re-converted a Sherman Firefly into another configuration, then the tank loses the "Firefly" tag (which is a nickname more than a proper designation, anyway).


To me the 'someone' is key. If a collector or re-enactor puts a Firefly turret on a standard Sherman I will record it as a standard Sherman, with a Firefly turret. If however the Italian or Belgian army puts a Firefly turret on a standard Sherman and it serves in that configuration then I record it as a Firefly (but an Italian or Belgian one, not a British one).


- Massimo_Foti

From what I can see Trevor's stance is "the hull rules", if the hull came from a Firefly, Trevor will flag it as a Firefly, basically, in the scenario above, he will pick the hull.


All other things being equal, yes that is correct. Hence the tanks I have recorded as Fireflies even though they no longer have a Firefly turret or 17pdr. However, that can be trumped (see the previous paragraph) - if a tank has served in an army as a Firefly (a Firefly turret on a different hull) then it's a Firefly. Even the first British Fireflies didn't have all the characteristics we now consider to indicate a Firefly, but they were Fireflies nonetheless.

Increasingly the best answer I am finding is to make clearer categories. Once I have more examples of a tank in the database I can make finer distinctions. In this case I will likely create categories for British, Italian and Belgian Fireflies, and the text will explain the characteristics in this case. For example, I am just getting to the point where I have started to do this with the M47 Patton with its Italian Service section.


- Massimo_Foti
Other may be facing even harder choices, for example, should we put Fireflies among american or british tanks? There no definitive answer to such a question...


This was a hard choice for me at one time and I agonised over it. I now absolutely define a tank by the nationality of its hull design, and have never regretted that move. For me the Firefly comes under Sherman tanks, which are under American tanks:

Preserved American Tanks: Volume 2

There are sections there for Fireflies, Ishermans, FL10s, etc. Having experience of writing about tank development it has become for me the only choice. When writing about the Firefly you need to have described the history and development of the Sherman, much less relevant is the history of British tanks. At first glance it may appear to throw up anomalies (e.g. the US M1917 and Soviet KS are in a chapter with the FT), but it very quickly makes perfect sense. My only regret is that I didn't follow it absolutely when I wrote Preserved German Tanks, and included the Hetzer, Marder I, etc. Now they would come under Czechoslovak and French tanks respectively.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Trevor
Once I have more examples of a tank in the database I can make finer distinctions. In this case I will likely create categories for British, Italian and Belgian Fireflies, and the text will explain the characteristics in this case.


This is going to be a hard nut to crack. As far as I know all the Firefly's in Belgium are original British build exempt maybe two ( the one in Leopoldsburg and a hull in Brasschaat). But even then there is no proof they where actualy rebuild after the war here in Belgium. But I have to say, some of the monuments here in Belgium are fore sure a mix of hulls and turrets (Hechtel, Hermeton-sur-meusse, Clermont, Mopertingen).

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

If so, I'll classify them as British and make note of differences and exceptions. I look forward to writing up Belgium - I had a lot of fun in my youth cycling round and visiting old tanks - but it won't be for some time yet.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum