±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 301
Total: 301
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Member Screenshots
02: Member Screenshots
03: Home
04: Downloads
05: Member Screenshots
06: Community Forums
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: News
13: Downloads
14: Member Screenshots
15: Member Screenshots
16: Member Screenshots
17: Community Forums
18: Member Screenshots
19: Downloads
20: Community Forums
21: Downloads
22: Home
23: Downloads
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Your Account
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Downloads
36: Home
37: Photo Gallery
38: Member Screenshots
39: Community Forums
40: Downloads
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Downloads
44: Community Forums
45: Home
46: Member Screenshots
47: Community Forums
48: Member Screenshots
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Downloads
55: Member Screenshots
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Home
59: News Archive
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Member Screenshots
64: Home
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Member Screenshots
69: Community Forums
70: News Archive
71: Home
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: News Archive
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: News
80: Member Screenshots
81: Member Screenshots
82: News
83: Downloads
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Statistics
90: Community Forums
91: Downloads
92: Downloads
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Downloads
98: Member Screenshots
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Member Screenshots
103: Member Screenshots
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Member Screenshots
109: Community Forums
110: Member Screenshots
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Member Screenshots
120: Community Forums
121: Member Screenshots
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Home
139: Member Screenshots
140: News Archive
141: Home
142: Photo Gallery
143: Community Forums
144: News Archive
145: Home
146: Photo Gallery
147: Member Screenshots
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Member Screenshots
151: Community Forums
152: Downloads
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Member Screenshots
156: Member Screenshots
157: Downloads
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Downloads
161: Downloads
162: Home
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Downloads
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Downloads
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Member Screenshots
172: Community Forums
173: Member Screenshots
174: News
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Home
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Member Screenshots
186: Community Forums
187: Home
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Member Screenshots
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Member Screenshots
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Downloads
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Statistics
212: Community Forums
213: News
214: Member Screenshots
215: Photo Gallery
216: Home
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Downloads
221: Community Forums
222: Downloads
223: Member Screenshots
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Downloads
228: News
229: Photo Gallery
230: Community Forums
231: Downloads
232: Community Forums
233: Member Screenshots
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Member Screenshots
237: Member Screenshots
238: Home
239: Member Screenshots
240: Your Account
241: Member Screenshots
242: Community Forums
243: Photo Gallery
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Downloads
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Member Screenshots
259: Member Screenshots
260: Community Forums
261: Home
262: Downloads
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Member Screenshots
266: Downloads
267: Community Forums
268: Home
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Member Screenshots
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Home
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Downloads
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Photo Gallery
287: Home
288: Photo Gallery
289: Member Screenshots
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Member Screenshots
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pzkpfw-e
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 1202

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:23 pm
Post subject: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

wyborcza.pl/1,75248,92...o_USA.html

Rough translation

The extraordinary story of the tank, which disappeared 20 years ago, immediately after extraction from the Black Nida near Bieleckich Mills. There are many indications that the panther was exported to the United States, where it is to be renovated and run as a great attraction. In Poland, the prosecutor's office investigated the matter, it also took the CBS

This story begins in mid-January 1945, when the Red Army advanced along the direction of Kielce, and its offensive on the Nida tried to stop the German armored units. During these struggles Pz.Kampf.V Tank Ausf. A Panther is stuck in the river near Bieleckich Mills (gm. Morawica). In the 50s Polish People's Army under the orders blasted its turret, but the nearly complete hull remained in place until 16 November 1990. Then, weighing around 30 tons, the wreckage was brought out on behalf of a private company. With helped from the technical security carts with a military unit Bukowiec. It turned out that the wreck is in a surprisingly good condition - it had all-wheel drive, all equipment inside. Experts have noted that it is quite unusual version of the panther, it is possible that a prototype.

The tank on the carriage was transported to Warsaw, then virtually disappeared. Even in 1991 there were some reports that it could get abroad as scrap, and journalists "Words of the People" described that involved the extraction of such operating in Kielce an association, while the army has made the extraction of the exercise.

Surprisingly, late last year began to investigate the matter Tank Central Bureau of Investigation. - Sam, I was surprised because it's so many years. But police said that the case was classified as a theft of cultural property, and it is not barred - anonymous informant tells Gazeta. For closure of this issue Police Chief spokesman did not respond to questions on this matter.

There are many indications that the procedure is carried out after doniesieniu made by Piotr Lewandowski, a lawyer, a private military enthusiast. - For several years trying to interest various authorities in this matter. After all, our country illegally were taken away a very valuable exhibit, and the circumstances in which this occurred, is at least strange - says Lewandowski. He argues that the tank completely excavated illegally on behalf of a private company from Warsaw. Interestingly, this would help, among others positive opinion of experts, the Higher Military School of Automobile, who found that it is worthless scrap. The documents, which arrived Lewandowski, shows that in return promised to provide some exhibits for the Museum. White Eagle in Skarzysko. - But the general conservator had agreed to deportation tank. Nevertheless, the wreck disappeared - emphasizes Lewandowski. Interestingly, after the interventions studied the matter twice in Kielce District Prosecutor. Last time last year. In April, interviewed, among others owners of a company that would handle the extraction of the wreck. - Indeed, the District Prosecutor Kielce-West to pursue a case on the illegal deportation tank, but they were dismissed because the case is przedawni?a - says S?awomir Mielniczuk, a spokesman for District Prosecutor's Office in Kielce.

- After that I made subsequent redemption notice, but this time the group, which probably deals with the wholesale export of such cultural property. Letter was sent to the chief of police, suggesting that the issue addressed by the Central Bureau of Investigation and the national team to fight crime against national heritage. I suspect that this resulted in a visit to CBS in the region Swietokrzyskie - says Lewandowski.

"Kielce" panther, probably around 2000 by Britain came to the United States. He bought it for his collection of Jacques Littlefield, a millionaire and passionate. On the internet you can find videos and photos of the tank and the information that has been redeemed from the Polish owner, and recovered from the Black Nida. With over 2 million dollars had been carefully renovated, reconstructing the tower, and even installed the original engine. Today, this tank is a lot of rides and attractions. - My dream is that once the tank returned to Polish - not hide Lewandowski.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

Hmmm...

It's hard to be sure, but it sounds to me like it was recovered and sold by (possibly corrupt?) officials in the 90s. Now 20 years later someone powerful has decided that they want to undo the deal. It sounds a lot like 'sour grapes'.

I suspect that even if the investigators manage to gather a case, this will spend at least another 20 years in court. Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle. At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project. That's likely to be a lot of cash.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:29 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- C_Sherman
Hmmm...

It's hard to be sure, but it sounds to me like it was recovered and sold by (possibly corrupt?) officials in the 90s. Now 20 years later someone powerful has decided that they want to undo the deal. It sounds a lot like 'sour grapes'.

I suspect that even if the investigators manage to gather a case, this will spend at least another 20 years in court. Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle. At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project. That's likely to be a lot of cash.

Chuck


On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Smashy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 05, 2010
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:34 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.

_________________
Smashy
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Smashy
- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.


For that to be the case, Poland will have to hire a high profile US law firm. That will not be cheap so I don't see that happening.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Rikard_Hufschmied
- Smashy
- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.


For that to be the case, Poland will have to hire a high profile US law firm. That will not be cheap so I don't see that happening.


That is something that could happen, depending if Poland is willing to create an example to scare others.

Even if it would cost Poland $100M over 20 years (and in comparison that is not much or a long time for a country), that is much more then the foundation is able to spend in time or money

And Poland is not the only country with such problems, they could be joined by some other countries to put up a statement

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

Hi,

At least based on the facts here, Poland is unlikely to prevail if they do take this to court. I suspect that "the officials were corrupt and not allowed to do that" won't hold a lot of water, as long as the buyers can demonstrate good faith efforts to obtain clear title. Nations are expected to police their own bureaucracy, for the most part.

Living here on the border of Mexico, we've seen a lot of transactions involving corrupt Mexican officials, and the response is usually a matter of national law. The Mexicans haven't had much luck in overturning such transactions once it crosses the international border, unless an American law was also broken in the process.

Very expensive, and very long.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:46 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- C_Sherman
Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle.

General consensus is that the trail takes place where de delict has occured, not where the accused or the goods in question are. In this case that would be Poland, and that makes it an entire other game to play.

At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project

Again not agree, the buyer has to prove he had no knowledge of the "history" of the goods. As there aren't many Panthers on the market its al going to depend on the judge.

However, as I conclude from the artikel its about a quest from a singel individual and far from a trail. I even think there already has been a trail in Poland about this case, maybe Rafal can shed some light on this.

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Pzkpfw-e
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 1202

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:22 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

If it does get dirty, I'm sure that the HMVF could offer them a tank or two for their museums.
Back to top
View user's profile
bialy-r
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 06, 2009
Posts: 1233
Location: POLAND
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:20 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

To cut this topic.

Nobody believe that the Panther come back to Poland.

In Poland the police shat down the investigation because flow of time.

In this case is only evolved one person Mr Lewandowski (none museum, foundation, institution). Is a little chance that this case get to court in USA and I think none chance that Foundation can loss the Panther or must paid for it.

There would be a chance if that would be a work of art which was lost during WWII or stolen in Poland. But we talk about wreck of tank which is now worth something only because Mr. Littlefield took a great effort to renovate it.

No institution in Poland will go to court because the cost of it are to expensive and the resolute is doubly. Even if in some impossible way the court say that the tank must go back to Poland, there won’t be no materials to give the money back that Mr Littlefield pumped it the wreck during renovation process.


Be honest we can get back the Polish TKS which is in Kubinka (Russia) so in what way we can get back something that was a wreck of a German tank.

In Poland are still two panther tanks hulls and 50% of people interested in history in Poland say that is good that the panther went to USA because in here it wouldn't be restored and still rusting on open air.


I suggest to close the topic
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum