Com-Central.net

- bsmart

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I've found that Wikipedia is only as accurate as the individuals who submit changes, so it can be 'dead-on' accurate, or the 'SPARKIE SCALE of '10 up & 2 down' (Do the Math...)

If the subject matter is suported with defining documentation and links, it can be quite informative but if supported with obscure interpretations and lacking much factual documentation, be wary, and search around the 'NET'.

Don

Very interesting readings indeed !!

By the way, I received a mail yesterday in which a photo-journalist who met Rex Cadman at the "War and Peace show" states that Rex told him :
"Rex at one time had five Panthers, three of which are now part of the Wheatcroft collection (1 Panther confirmed in Rex collection). He has the Panther I saw at War & Peace and has a complete running engine for this in one of his stores. He also has one of only three original Bergepanthers left in the world (confirmed), the other two being at Saumur and in Germany. He also has a Panzer IV (confirmed), a JagdPanzer IV, an original Hetzer, and three Flak 38s."

Very interested to know more about this !!

Pierre-Olivier

- bsmart

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't seem an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name

I think the reason for the name has to be found deep inside the bowels of the somewhat byzantine German armour production planning in 1944.

It had been realized since 1943 that the Panzer IV was no longer up to scratch and had reached the end of its upgrade potential. As some may recall from Guderians memoirs, it was suggested early in 1943 to stop production of the Panzer IV and concentrate on Panthers and Tigers instead. Even though it came to nothing at the time because the loss of production in such a switch would be unbearable, it was a recurring theme all the way up to wars end.

There had since 1941 been speculations about amalgamating the Panzer III and IV and by early 1944 these speculations resulted in a project where a modernized Panzer IV hull with sloped armour was combined with some superior mechanical parts from the Panzer III and a new 54cm track combined with three boogies with each 2, larger, roadwheels for a total of 6 roadwheels pr. side. Called the Einheitsfahrgestell, orders had already been placed by summer 1944 for both tank and StuG/Jagdpanzer variants, when it was decided to drop production of the Panzer IV all together. In other words, all Panzer IV production should be redirected to production of the Jagdpanzer IV with the 7,5cm L/70 gun. In late summer, early autumn 1944, it was also decided to drop further development on the Einheitsfahrgestell for StuG/Jagdpanzer.

At this junction, it is worth noticing that German examinations of the T34/85 and IS-II in the summer of 1944 had lead to the conclusion that the Panzer IV was hopelessly outdated particularily in terms of firepower. Since it was not considered feasible to mount the 7,5cm L/70 gun in the Panzer IV turret, focus turned to the Jagdpanzer IV armed with this gun. At the former Panzer IV production plant at Vomag, they could easily turn Jagdpanzer IV production into production of the Jagdpanzer IV with the L/70 gun, but in order to get the only Panzer IV manufacturer, Nibelungenwerk in Austria, into the progam fast, it was decided to slap a Jagdpanzer IV-like superstructure on the standard Panzer IV hull to speed up production of Jagdpanzer IV/Panzer IVs with the 7,5cm L/70 gun. The design was carried out by Alkett, hence the "A" after the vehicles name.

To sum up: In the summer of 1944, it was decided to drop further development of the turreted Panzer IV and shift all production to Panzer IV based vehicles with fixed superstructures and the 7,5cm L/70 gun.

It was at this point in the story that Hitler dictated, that all "Sturmgeschütze" with the long 7,5cm L/70 gun should be known as "Panzer IV lang" with the appendix "V" for the Vomag vehicle and "A" for the Alkett vehicle. This then developed into the "Panzer IV/70 (V)" and "Panzer IV/70 (A)".

As we know, Panzer IV production continued right up to wars end, but these decisions did have an impact on Panzer IV production in 1944.

First of all, Krupp stopped Panzer IV production in January 1944 to start production of the Sturmgeschütz IV, a crash programme initiated by the bombing of Alketts StuG III production line.

Vomag started Jagdpanzer IV production in January 1944 as well and stopped production of the Panzer IV in May 1944, leaving Nibelungenwerke as the sole producer of Panzer IVs. Aside from a small drop in Panzer IV production in February 1944, it was maintained at around 300, which, given that Jagdpanzer IV and StuG IV production was also running at full speed, meant that the production of Panzer IV based vehicles rose significantly.

But when Nibelungenwerk started the production of the Panzer IV/70 (A), Panzer IV production of course dropped, as it was effectively redirected from the turreted vehicle to the non-turreted. Production of the turreted Panzer IV dropped from 300 a month to somewhere between 160 and 200 in the period from September 1944 to February 1945.

So the decisions made in the summer of 1944, which caused the somewhat peculiar disignation "Panzer IV" for at non-turreted vehicle, was to some extent implemented, resulting in a shift in production from the turreted tank to the StuG/Jagdpanzer types.

cbo

First of all, I think I may need to point out that I'm not criticizing anyones use of nomenclature for German vehicles nor am I claiming that my usages is right and every one elses is wrong. I would rather prefer not to be seen as part of the crowd who search endlessly for "correct" or "official" names.

I just use the names I'm accustomed to.

- the_shadock

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).

Works for me but what is more important is whether it works for you

However, as Bob confirms, "Panzer IV/70" seems to be a well established name for the Jagdpanzer IV with the long 7,5cm L/70 gun in the general litterature about the vehicle. So, as you point out, it becomes a matter of whether you want to conform your nomenclature to litterature and cater for the armour afficionados or whether you want use more descriptive names that makes sense to the general public.

cbo

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't see an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name

Well,

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).
I try to refer as much as possible to Wikipedia, as it is a free and easy accessible encyclopedia. I don't have Panzer litterature at all. I decided to specialize not on tank designations and characteristics but on their location and status only.

As did Bob Smart, I'm quite perplex about a designation like "Panzer IV/70" which refers to a tank and not a tank destroyer for me. (and I think it is the same for the general public who has a minimal interest for German armour).

But I'm open to a discussion about the designation which should appear on my documents, and if I should replace the ones currently appearing by more accurate ones. Let me know.

Pierre-Olivier

- the_shadock

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

Well, if we are going to be anal about it

1 Jagdpanzer IV or Panzer IV/70 unknown model
5 Jagdpanzer IV (Munster 0-serie, Munster, Saumur, Thun, Bulgaria)
5 Panzer IV/70 V (Sofia, Kubinka, APG, Ft. Knox, Ottawa)
1 Panzer IV/70 A (Saumur)

As for the name, people can call them what they want, I just use the designations I've come to know and use from the litterature I've read over the years

The reality is that even the German army used different designations at different times during the life-cycle of a given vehicle, particularily when it came to anything StuG-like due to the on going struggle between the Generalinspectorate of Armoured Troops and that of the artillery over the right to control production, organisation etc. on this type of vehicle.

Hence, the Jagdpanzer IV was, at various times in its life:

Leichte Panzerjäger (auf Fgst.Pz.Kpf.Wg. IV)
Panzerjäger (auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV)
7,5cm Pz.Jäg. 39 (L/48) IV
Sturmgeschütz neue Art
Leichte Panzerjäger IV
...and finally in September 1944, just as production was running out, Jagdpanzer IV

There are a number of variants on those as well.

Spielberger lists about 15 different name variants for the Panzer IV/70 V, including:

Sturmgeschütz mit 7,5cm L/70
Panzer IV lang (V)
Leichte Panzerjäger (Vomag) mit 7,5cm PaK 42
Panzer IV/70 V
...and even in one case, plainly "Jagdpanzer IV"

Similar stuff with the Panzer IV/70 A.

But neither is apparently refered to as "Jagdpanzer IV/70" by anyone at any time.

As for the Wiki article, it links to both Panzerworld and Achtung Panzer who both uses the Jagdpanzer IV - Panzer IV/70 designation. Why the author of the article chooses to elaborate on the cumbersome "official name" of "Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV" and then ignores the designations used by his own references is anybodys guess

Whether you should change the names you use in your much appreciated documents about surviving tanks is none of my business, but it seems to me that any serious book about German armour is using Jagdpanzer IV for the short-gunned version and Panzer IV/70 for the two long-gunned versions (i.e. Spielberger, Chamberlain & Doyle, Jentz etc.)

cbo

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

Well, the designations can be discussed but I think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Is it not? If not, I should maybe modify this document :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_IV_variants.pdf

"Variants

* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/43: a small number of these were built as the preproduction series.
* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48, official name Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV. Some 780 or so were produced in 1944.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was one of two variants armed with the PaK 42 L/70 gun. Some 940 were built in 1944 and 1945. The (V) stands for the builder, Vomag.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was the other PaK 42 L/70 armed Jagdpanzer IV. This differed in that its superstructure was mounted directly on the original Panzer IV chassis and as such lacked the sharp edged nose of the other variants. Only 278 were built during 1944 and 1945. The (A) stands for the builder, Alkett."

- bsmart

I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

I'm just calling it what the Germans were calling it

I was under the impression that the designation "Panzer IV/70" was well established in the armour community? It is he name used in my old 1993 edition of Chamberlain & Doyles "Encyclopedia of German Tanks.."

cbo

- clausb

- bsmart

Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo

I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

But Yes the one at Aberdeen has the L70 gun

- bsmart

Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo

- clausb

- Rikard_Hufschmied

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.


cbo

Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

What's the forums take on this one?



Not so evident in this shot, but judging from other shots of the same vehicle while still buried (in this thread: www.scalemodels-bg.com...start=285) suggest that it is one of the 142 StuG IIIs built on Panzer III Ausf. M hulls delivered from MIAG in 1943. It has the off-set splash guard in front of the drivers visor, Panzer III hatches and welded add-on armour.

I dont recall seeing any other surviving vehicles of this type?

EDIT: Possibly the StuG III G in Rena, Norway is of the same type?

cbo

When Finland offered the 3 StuGs for sale, it didn't seem that others would be offered in the near future, that's why they were bought for these quite high prices. Now, at least 7 StuGs and 15 Pz IV are offered, so the rarity of the offer decrease and the starting price is, I think, too high. I think that some of them will not be sold. The big question is ; what will they do with them?

The other big question : what about the incomplete bottom hulls + Panzer IV with turret modified for an MG ? Will they be recovered too?

P-O