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At the first gunnery training in Germany in september 2005 the M865 training round was fired for the first time. This was also that the yearly Bult Francis Cup gunnery contest was done. During this contest 42nd tkbat and 101 tkbat complained about the fumes inside compared to the old DM 38 and DM48 rounds. This was investigated and at the end of 2006 the M865 will be replaced by the M865C3 training round. In our company there were no complains about extra fumes.

Also in the near future the metal MRS mirror will be replaced by a glass one (again, as was on the A4 and A5). This because of the small scratches each time they clean sand etc from it.

regards,
Lesley

Lesley

Thanks for the Info

BTW: I dug up an old photo I took back in 1989. Thought you might be interested, if I haven't already posted it before.



Enjoy

Hello Dontos,
No, I never saw this photo before, very interesting. Its a A4 from 41 Tankbatallion based at Bergen-Hohne camp.

I presume this picture was taken during the CAT??

Still like this model the most although the armour on the A5 and A6 is better and the turret traverse system is safer on the A5/A6.

The ''old'' A4s always had that distinctive smell of hydraulic oil, the sound of the hydraulic pump, the hand wheels for elevation / azimuth. During one of the Bult Francis Cup contests back in 1997 the electrical system of my A4 failed. To aim the driver turned the hull in the right direction until the gunner saw it in its GAS, a few turns with the handwheels for elev / az and fire. It were hits. Great times!

Thanks!
Regards,
Lesley

Yes it was taken in June 89 at Bergen Range 9.

(my personal 'nightmare' range)

Actually I have a soft spot on my heart for the Dutch tankers. Having competed in the 89 CAT, they really kicked the pants off of 'us' that year.

Personally, I love the look of the A5 & A6. Imposing and a bit futuristic, rally cool!

Lesley,
M865 training rounds have been around quite a while, so there are many variations. At one time the Sabots were bolted together at the base and then they switched to an epoxy (saved money), I never had a problem with fumes, did have a few flarebacks but that's usually caused by bad sealing of the bore evacuator in combination with the combustible cartidge. First thing we check are the seals. We were having a problem 6-7 years back with "Onion Skin" build up in the chamber and residue from the epoxy causing chambering problems. That's with M865. We'd be firing Table 12 and all of a sudden the round would not chamber all the way in and we couldn't get it out. My loader broke the breech handle once trying to beat it in. This was after I did the old grab the cupola ring and kick dance. Very Very frustrating when targets are not being engaged. This problem mostly happened at temps below 20 degrees Farenheit. I here it was solved a while back. I'm curious, why the switch to M865 with Germany right next door? Is it because of the reduced distance it travels with a cone assembly versus fins allowing shorter ranges for training??

Joe D

Hello Joe,
Now I have to translate it from Dutch to English so maybe I'am not using the correct names but;

There was a possibility with the DM48 that glowing metal residue of the ignition/primer stayed in the barrel and affect the next round loaded. For this reason it was not allowed to have dismounted infantry close by the barrel or in front of a tank with DM48 loaded during live fire exercises. With the M865 this is allowed.

The NL is swapping/changed (correct word?) 13.500 surplus DM33A1 rounds for 13.500 M865 rounds with the US, so we don't pay money for these rounds.
After all, we are dutch so if we can safe some money......

Hope this answers youre question,
Regards,
Lesley

- Dontos

Yes it was taken in June 89 at Bergen Range 9.

(my personal 'nightmare' range)

Actually I have a soft spot on my heart for the Dutch tankers. Having competed in the 89 CAT, they really kicked the pants off of 'us' that year.

Personally, I love the look of the A5 & A6. Imposing and a bit futuristic, rally cool!

I like the box like turret of the A4, in my opinion the A5 had a optically too short barrel compared to the big turret. With the long L55 gun on the A6 the turret / gun combination looks indeed imposing.

About the CAT, it is a shame they don't have this anymore. I'am very curious how an average (not specially selected) NL tankplatoon will do in a international tankgunnery contest. Unfortunately we don't have the time and money for these thing anymore......

Lesley,
Curious why the US would want DM33A1 rounds. I'm not familiar with them. The DM33 is a service/combat round APFSDS, is it a newer version of this? If it's DU then I can understand because most European Nations are going "Green" and getting away from this material. The US demills alot of DU for other countries. If you can get training rounds for rounds you don't need it is indeed wise.
We had a problem with primers years ago. They would stay too hot after firing and pose a hazard if a round broke and spilled the propellant on them. For a while they put a silicon cover over the primer, then they just made the primer with thicker metal, this kept it from getting to hot when fired. The propellant is now also encased in a combustable bag. I have always wondered how other army's experiences with the German 120mm gun has been. I am getting a small idea with your posts.

Joe D

Hello Joe,
I really don't know why the US needs those ''old'' rounds, a guess is that they maybe sell it to other countries. It contains no DU, the penetrator is made off Wolframnikkel ijzer (WSMIII WolframSchwerMetall III), tranlated as tungsten nickel iron third generation.

There are the following subvariants of which the DM33A1 the only subvariant is the NL army used. I try to translate is a correct as possible
DM33A1; kunststof centreerband is voorgesneden voor een betere
separatie van de segmenten.

plastic ring which keeps the sabots together is precut, this for a
better seperation of the sabots

DM33A2; zelfde modificatie als de DM33A1 maar nu ook een nieuwe
ontsteking.

same as the DM33A1, but now also with a new primer / ignition.
What type of modification of the primer / ignition I don't know

Since March 2002 Germany has also the DM33A3, what modification this is I don't know

Although just bought by the NL army, the DM53 is already modified to DM53A1 (typedesignation seen in NL army) so it can be used in all climat zones without any special measures.

The only round at the moment we can not use with infantry around is the DM12A1 round which still has the old primer / ignition. But it is already more than 20 years old. The only modification was from DM12 to DM12A1 is that the DM12 is loaded with RDX/TNT and has a sphere shape inert shield and the DM12A1 had a triangle (?) shape inert shield of plastic (correct word?) and is loaded with Hexogene. What the differences are between those two explosives is I don't know. The effect of both rounds is the same.

Hope this helps,
Regards,
Lesley