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sherman 105mm
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Sundrtonge
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:55 pm
Post subject: sherman 105mm

Hi,

new to the board. I was wondering if anyone here might possibly have any technical data on the sherman 105mm, specifically the gun its ammo, its HE or possible AP performance, range of the weapon useage of the weapon (i.e. direct, indirect etc) etc.

No i dont have the Hunnicutt book as of yet, a bit pricey right now for me. But as I mentioned in the previous post I think when I get a chance I will nominate it and the other Hunnicutt books (if I can get the ISBN #'s) for digital reprinting so that at least there would be a chance of them becomming available even if the quality wouldnt be a great.

thanks,
-Dave
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:31 am
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

Welcome Aboard

The 105mm in the Sherman was ballistically compatable with thestandard M2 (later called the M101) 105mm howitzer. The ammunition consisted of the standard selectionof rounds that the Field Artillery 105mm had. It was capable of both direct and indirect fire in fact there racks on them to hold the aiming stakes required to set up the gun postion for Fire Direction Center control.

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binder001
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:56 am
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

Some quick remarks on the AP performance you requested...

1) the 105mm HEAT shell could penetrate a Panther's glacis at 500 yds - based on US firing tests at Isigny, France in the summer of 1944.

2) to modify the above - the 105mm howitzer M4 used in the M4s and M4A3s with 105 mm Howitzers was basically set up as a field artillery weapon. It did not have a semi-automatic breech as most tank guns do (the semi-auto breech opens at the end of the recoil stroke and ejects the empty casing, allowing a faster reload). The original production 105mm armed medium tanks also did not have power turret traverse. These add to to a tank that might work in ambush, but watch out if you miss that first shot!
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:11 am
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

Hi Dave! Hi Folks!

- Sundrtonge

Hi, new to the board.

Welcome to the group!

- Sundrtonge

I was wondering if anyone here might possibly have any technical data on the sherman 105mm, specifically the gun its ammo, its HE or possible AP performance, range of the weapon useage of the weapon (i.e. direct, indirect etc) etc.


Here is some of what you are looking for:
105mm howitzer M4 in mount M52
Traverse manuel on early vehicles, later hydraulic power added
Elevation +35 to -10 degrees
Firing rate: 8 rounds per minute
Vehicle could carry 66 rounds of 105 mm ammo.
Ammo was semifixed, variable charge except for the HEAT M67 round
M67 HEAT-T shell
M60 WP smoke shell
M84 HC BE shell (My note: some type of smoke round)
M1 HE shell
Max range:
M1 at max charge 12,205 yards
M67 8,590 yards
M60 12,150 yards
M84 12,205 yards
Armor pentration: M67 HEAT shell, 0 degrees obliquity 4.0 inches at any range.

- Sundrtonge

I think when I get a chance I will nominate it ....for digital reprinting so that at least there would be a chance of them becomming available even if the quality wouldnt be a great.


I have one book that was done by digital reprinting. "On Point" by the Association of the U.S. Army (AUSA) printed by the Naval Institute Press. AUSA was in a rush to get that book out and elected to go with digital printing because it was faster.

Many of the maps are nothing but dark blobs. Many of the photos are very dark and it is almost impossible to pick out much detail. For example, photos of individuals. You can not make out their faces. As for vehicles, you can see the outline, but details of the vehicles are dark spots. The printed word is great. But most of the photos are just wasted pages. NO, it is not a problem with the original photos and maps. After buy the book, I ran acrossed a copy on the internet of the report the book is based on. The photos and maps in the internet copy are clear and not dark reproductions.

If that is an example of the quailty of digital reprinting (another member once told us that a digital reprint of Hunnicutt's book would be a waste of money) then I would also say, don't waste you money unless you can inspect the book first to insure the photos are OK.

Spot report on the 105mm howitzer and my 2 cents on digital printing of photos.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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JWB2
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:14 am
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

When (what year) was that digital printing done? Nowadays digital printing can be extremely high quality.
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:18 am
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

- Roy_A_Lingle


Many of the maps are nothing but dark blobs. Many of the photos are very dark and it is almost impossible to pick out much detail. For example, photos of individuals. You can not make out their faces. As for vehicles, you can see the outline, but details of the vehicles are dark spots. The printed word is great. But most of the photos are just wasted pages. NO, it is not a problem with the original photos and maps. After buy the book, I ran acrossed a copy on the internet of the report the book is based on. The photos and maps in the internet copy are clear and not dark reproductions.


Sounds more like crappy photocopying - digital reprinting is usually very high quality stuff.

Cool

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:24 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

Hi JWB! Hi Folks!

- JWB2

When (what year) was that digital printing done? Nowadays digital printing can be extremely high quality.


The copy write is 2005.

Jim posted:
"Sounds more like crappy photocopying - digital reprinting is usually very high quality stuff."

I agree with the crappy part, that's what it looks like. As far as I know "On Point" is the only book I have or have seen that was digital printed. The written part is high quality. All I can say is from what little I have seen, I would not buy a digital reprinted book with out looking at it first.

My confuzed 2 cents, Confused
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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LeeW
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

- binder001
Some quick remarks on the AP performance you requested...

1) the 105mm HEAT shell could penetrate a Panther's glacis at 500 yds - based on US firing tests at Isigny, France in the summer of 1944.
...!


Note that HEAT performance is almost independent of range. In the case of this round it probably improved with range. PH on the other hand .....
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

- Roy_A_Lingle

Jim posted:
"Sounds more like crappy photocopying - digital reprinting is usually very high quality stuff."

I agree with the crappy part, that's what it looks like. As far as I know "On Point" is the only book I have or have seen that was digital printed. The written part is high quality. All I can say is from what little I have seen, I would not buy a digital reprinted book with out looking at it first.


Actually having said that a lot depends on the scanning - But generally the larger the scan file the better the quality.

Cool

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not serious about anything military..

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Sundrtonge
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:53 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

Thanks for the replies, they are great! Dont get to spend too much time on the borads hence have not been here in a few.

Quick question on the HEAT performance the range doesnt matter?? - any idea on the distance that HEAT projectile might be able to be shot fromthat 105mm?


Quick note on the nominating a book for digital. I actually went and nominated the title but they sent me an email back stating I would have to contact the publisher on this title. I agree the digital printing isnt the best but I do many books with it and it is a nice alternative just to have something available at a reasonable cost Smile

thanks again!
-Dave

BTW I was just down at Aberdeen in Maryland and snapped off about 1100 pictures or so, if I get a chance ill throw a few up latter on. The curator and staff down there were awesome to our needs!
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Sundrtonge
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

oops should have read a little closer Shocked - looks like the HEAT range of

M67 8,590 yards?

_dave
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

If you had mentioned it earlier, Bob Smart probably could have arranged for a behind the scenes tour at the museum...

Neil
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Sundrtonge
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:04 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

And for the whys of this - I am desiging a simple WWII armor game for my company as I am not satisfied with what is out there now.

Bob Smart? i think I spoke to you about my Aberdeen trip through geroge Bradford? HI!

-Dave
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LeeW
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

- Sundrtonge
...Quick question on the HEAT performance the range doesnt matter?? ...!

Actually that's only a first order approximation due to a couple of factors either not well understood or who's fix was known or considered worth while WWII HEAT rounds especially those from a cannon (as opposed to say a bazooka, rifle grenade, or panzer faust) actually probably improved with range. There are two reasons for this:
1) spinning (due to using a rifled barrel) tends to cut down on the penetration of HEAT rounds. The further the shell got from the barrel the slower the sping and the less this effect.
2) To get maximum effect from a HEAT round you want to detonate it a bit before it reaches the target (this the standoff probes on most current HEAT rounds). If the round is traveling slower when it hits this tends to give it a bit more "stand off".
Now whether the effect of either of these two was noticable between say 500 yards and 1,000 yards I don't know (and rather doubt). Certainly the PH of a HEAT round was going to go down pretty rapidly as range increased. Also there is the possibility that as long as the round penetrated the disbursing effect of the spin and higher velocity might actually enhance the behind armor effects.

For game purposes I'd probably not get into any of this....
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Sundrtonge
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: sherman 105mm

Hi Neil,

i think I did speak with Bob and it just didnt happen, I didnt raelize this until a little bit ago. Him and Geroge have been great! I was able to get a behind the scenes tour as well, though they were quite busy. I snaged up shots of the Elephant as well over at the railhead, pretty cool vehicle!

I was just doing a bit of math, if the 105 has the same performance as the artillery piece, but the elevation allowance is about half that of the artillery piece I would think it is safe to assume that the range of the 105 Sherman would be about hald for indirect fire.

-Dave
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