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Early WWII US amphibious tanks
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:49 pm
Post subject: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

Several months ago I started reading "Panzer Operations, the Eastern Front Memoir of General (Erhard) Raus, 1941-1945", compiled by Steven Newton (2003).

He started WWI as a platoon leader, and ended as battalion commander. He stayed in the Austrian army between the wars, and eventually rose to be one of the most experienced German tank officers of WWII. The fact he was in almost constant contact from Barbarossa to the surrender in Berlin speaks to his adaptability and successes. He was extensively interviewed post-war, although reportedly he was poorly translated which confused some of his legacy.

The part I wanted to ask this forum was he mentions encountering up to 12 Russian-manned American-made amphibious tanks as his troops were 'bulling' their way forward paralleling the Baltic coast towards Leningrad on 12 July 1941. What could they have been?
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

Hi Maple! Hi Folks!

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

"Panzer Operations, the Eastern Front Memoir of General (Erhard) Raus, 1941-1945", compiled by Steven Newton (2003).

He was extensively interviewed post-war, although reportedly he was poorly translated which confused some of his legacy.

The part I wanted to ask this forum was he mentions encountering up to 12 Russian-manned American-made amphibious tanks as his troops were 'bulling' their way forward paralleling the Baltic coast towards Leningrad on 12 July 1941. What could they have been?


July 1941? American made amphibious tanks in July 1941? In Russia?

Could the Soviets have had some of Walter Christie's designs? Something like the type he tried to sell to the U.S.M.C in the mid 1920s. There is a photo in Kenneth W. Estes' book "Marines Under Armor". The second page of photos, which are between pages 106 and 107, has a photo of a Christie amphibious tank (really a tracked 75mm gun) making an admin landing on Culebra Island in 1924 (U.S. Naval Institute photo).

Maybe something new for the history books? Shocked
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

That is the only sort of thing that I could surmise. The well known M series tanks weren't amphibs, so the Christie series were the only obvious alternative.
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Cloudy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:04 am
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

Perhaps he confused the T-37/38 light amphibious tanks with the American "Combat Car" or M2 series vehicles which they broadly resemble - although they would rather unlikely be sailing along the Baltic coast at any time...
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:09 am
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

Perhaps PT-1A amphibious tanks, a variant of the Christie BT-series tanks?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_tank

BTW, the account recounted above says they were encountered while paralleling the Baltic coast - not they they were necessarily IN the Baltic...


Neil
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

p48 of above cited book, starting midparagraph, "The day long struggle against the swamp, caused by the accuracy of the available maps and the lack of engineer equipment prevented us from attacking near Novoselye on 11 July.

Next morning, our advance detachment attacked the flank of the Russian forces guarding the highway, whose presence south of a small swampy stream had been reported the day before. After a short sharp engagement, including a tank fight, we threw the flank guard back across the river. American amphibious tanks made their first appearance on the Russian front in this action. Six of them fell victim to our antitank and panzer fire at close range from a wooded area - three knocked out on land and three while crossing the small stream. The first German troops to gain the northern bank seized two of them that were still serviceable. [[Oops, I miscounted in my first posting saying there were at least 12.]]

The six foot deep stream was not fordable, so our engineers again had to construct a bridge for the Kampfgruppe's main body."

The map in the book shows this action to be in ESTONIA south of the LUGA RIVER, which is south of LENINGRAD, and between LAKE PEIPUS on the west and LAKE ILMEN on the east.

This battlegroup was panzer in only a small part. The majority of their some 60 tanks were Czech 38Ts with a few Pz IIs. Other parts of the division had similar lightweight vehicles except with a few Pz IIIs and a few IVs in the fourth tank company of the tank battalions.

Further to the post above, I poked around Wikipedia and found this reference, but it is definately a Russian amphibious scout tank, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-40 .
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Sabot
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

Did the Soviets get any of the LVT variants through lend-lease? If so, perhaps it was one of those Amtracs like the Buffalo or Alligator.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

Hi Sobot! Hi Folks!

- Sabot

Did the Soviets get any of the LVT variants through lend-lease? If so, perhaps it was one of those Amtracs like the Buffalo or Alligator.


I would think the date, July 1941, would have been a bit to early for any of those AFVs to have been in Soviet hands.

Anyone know when lend-lease started flowing to the Soviets?

Anyone know when the first Buffalo or Alligator designs where completed.?
I check all my books all I found was 'most' were used in the PTO.

I think Neil maybe on to something with his post.
"Perhaps PT-1A amphibious tanks, a variant of the Christie BT-series tanks?"

It is my understanding that the German's consisted the BT-series fast tanks as "American" tanks.

Interesting. Confused
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Cloudy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:09 am
Post subject: Re: Early WWII US amphibious tanks

- Neil_Baumgardner

BTW, the account recounted above says they were encountered while paralleling the Baltic coast - not they they were necessarily IN the Baltic...
Neil

D'oh! Nothing like superficial reading...

Alan
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