±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 263
Total: 263
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: Downloads
03: Photo Gallery
04: Photo Gallery
05: Downloads
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Member Screenshots
10: Home
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Member Screenshots
16: News
17: Photo Gallery
18: News Archive
19: Community Forums
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Photo Gallery
26: Home
27: Member Screenshots
28: Photo Gallery
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Home
33: Photo Gallery
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Downloads
37: Home
38: Home
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Home
43: Downloads
44: Home
45: Photo Gallery
46: Home
47: Photo Gallery
48: Downloads
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: News
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Home
66: News
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: News Archive
72: Photo Gallery
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: CPGlang
78: CPGlang
79: Home
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Your Account
87: Home
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Your Account
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: Downloads
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Your Account
104: Your Account
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Downloads
109: Home
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Photo Gallery
113: Photo Gallery
114: Downloads
115: Community Forums
116: Home
117: Home
118: News
119: Your Account
120: News
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Home
125: Your Account
126: Statistics
127: Photo Gallery
128: Photo Gallery
129: Member Screenshots
130: Community Forums
131: Photo Gallery
132: Home
133: Community Forums
134: CPGlang
135: Community Forums
136: Downloads
137: Downloads
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: CPGlang
143: Photo Gallery
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Your Account
151: Photo Gallery
152: Home
153: Home
154: Your Account
155: Downloads
156: Your Account
157: Member Screenshots
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Photo Gallery
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Home
164: Downloads
165: Home
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Community Forums
175: Member Screenshots
176: CPGlang
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Your Account
181: Community Forums
182: Downloads
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Home
187: Photo Gallery
188: Photo Gallery
189: Your Account
190: Photo Gallery
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Photo Gallery
199: Home
200: CPGlang
201: Member Screenshots
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Your Account
210: Statistics
211: Photo Gallery
212: Your Account
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: Your Account
216: Your Account
217: Your Account
218: Home
219: Home
220: Community Forums
221: Home
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: Home
228: Community Forums
229: CPGlang
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Photo Gallery
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: News
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: Home
239: Photo Gallery
240: Downloads
241: Your Account
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Member Screenshots
254: Downloads
255: Photo Gallery
256: Member Screenshots
257: News Archive
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Your Account
261: Home
262: Photo Gallery
263: CPGlang

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:18 pm
Post subject: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Hi Guys-
Just when you thought I could not think of another railway question, yet another comes to my pointy little noodle! I've been studying all the photos I can find of freight on flatcars and, I cannot see what holds said freight in place. If the freight is vehicles, I can see blocks/chocks placed front and back of the tires, what is holding them (block/chocks) in place? On some, not all, flat bed trucks, I can see tie down rings and places to drop a peg to stop a block from slipping. I dont see anything like this on any railway flatcars. On the sides of the Dragon flatcars are rings which, obviously, are meant to serve as tie down points for frieght although, these would not help to hold wheel blocks/chocks. I mean to say, the railway flatbed is featureless so, if you put a block in front of a vehicle's wheel, what is there (on the flatbed) to keep the block from sliding?
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/) Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

- geoffsteer
Hi Guys-
Just when you thought I could not think of another railway question, yet another comes to my pointy little noodle! I've been studying all the photos I can find of freight on flatcars and, I cannot see what holds said freight in place. If the freight is vehicles, I can see blocks/chocks placed front and back of the tires, what is holding them (block/chocks) in place? On some, not all, flat bed trucks, I can see tie down rings and places to drop a peg to stop a block from slipping. I dont see anything like this on any railway flatcars. On the sides of the Dragon flatcars are rings which, obviously, are meant to serve as tie down points for frieght although, these would not help to hold wheel blocks/chocks. I mean to say, the railway flatbed is featureless so, if you put a block in front of a vehicle's wheel, what is there (on the flatbed) to keep the block from sliding?
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/) roll
It probably varies from country to country based on local custom. In The US on some older flat cars they would nail the blocks into the wood deck

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

They are could be nailed into the flatcar, or the weight of the vehicle applies pressure. Chains can be applied to the tow hooks or around axles and then ratched down, to keep the vehicle from shifting.

HTH
Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:35 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Depends on who you are talking about.

In the US, railroad rules require chains fore and aft. Depending on the type of flatcar and what you are loading on it (wheel or track, etc.), it may also require chocks and bracing. The chocks and bracing are normally nailed to the car decking using long spikes. The rules are fairly strict, and we always wondered if the railcars were actually going to be upside down at some point.

In Europe, they don't always require chains to secure the load. This may have something to do with the generally smoother roadbeds on Euro railways, and may also reflect the generally shorter distances for rail movements in Europe. I believe that the distance of the move can come into play; i.e., shorter moves require less extensive tiedown or blocking. Perhaps some of the folks here have experience with military rail movements in Europe and can comment further.

I recall reading that German armor was only secured by chocks fore and aft, during WWII. I'm less sure, but I believe that still holds true.

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?Thanks Guys.

Hi Don & Bob-
Nailed down? I must admit, I never thought of that, probably to simple and obvious. On the one hand, nailing down the blocks would cause wear and tear on the flatbed's wooden floor. On the other hand, it would not cause sufficient wear and tear to force the replacement of the wooden floor on anything like a frequent amount of occasions. Actually, being able to nail down blocks is most likely the reason for the flatbed having a wooden floor in the first place.
Thanks for your help, Don and Bob-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
L.Delsing
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

For Leopards and YPR-765's you need a total of 8 chocks / blocks. Two in front of the track, two at the back against the track and and then 4 chocks / blocks to prevent sideways sliding. These will be placed at the inside of the track under the first and last roadwheels. So it can not move forwards, backwards or sidewards.

These last mentioned chocks / blocks are hanging at the back of the turret of the Leopard 2A5/A6.

Correct placement of these things is checked by railroadpersonnel and if OK nothing more is required. Of course the parking brake of the vehicle must be engaged.

Regards,
Lesley
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

- C_Sherman
Depends on who you are talking about.

In the US, railroad rules require chains fore and aft. Depending on the type of flatcar and what you are loading on it (wheel or track, etc.), it may also require chocks and bracing. The chocks and bracing are normally nailed to the car decking using long spikes. The rules are fairly strict, and we always wondered if the railcars were actually going to be upside down at some point.

In Europe, they don't always require chains to secure the load. This may have something to do with the generally smoother roadbeds on Euro railways, and may also reflect the generally shorter distances for rail movements in Europe. I believe that the distance of the move can come into play; i.e., shorter moves require less extensive tiedown or blocking. Perhaps some of the folks here have experience with military rail movements in Europe and can comment further.

I recall reading that German armor was only secured by chocks fore and aft, during WWII. I'm less sure, but I believe that still holds true.

C


Are flatcars loaded with vehicles ever 'humped'? ( Do they do that in Europe at all?) I know some types of cars are labeled 'DO NOT HUMP' and I always figured it was because of the shock loads involved in the process.

For those that don't know Hump yards are freight classification yards that are used to make up and break down trains. It centers around a large 'hill'. The train is pushed up the back side of the hill (or hump) by a switching locomotive. At the top each car is disconnected in turn and allowed to drift down the front slope where the tower personnel watch it and throw various switches routing the car into the stub track where they want it. I've seen a hump yard that had several cars all rolling down the slope at the same time with the appropriate switch being thrown just before the car gets to the point of the switch and each car slamming into the cars already on the stub when it reached the end of the run. There are brake plates along the rails that can be used to control the cars speed as it rolls down the slope but I understand that there is a reluctance to use them any more than absolutely neccesary since it slows the process of building trains.

If the cars have to be 'humpable' that could be another reason the more extensive chaining is required in the U.S.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

LOL....okay .

Its my understanding that it is due to the poorer condition of the US rail system.

European Rail system is far better maintained.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:31 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Here is a photo I took in 1993 at Ft Hood. We were railloading to Ft Bliss and Operation Roving Sands.

This is a typical tie-down scenario in the States.



Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

- bsmart

Are flatcars loaded with vehicles ever 'humped'? ( Do they do that in Europe at all?) I know some types of cars are labeled 'DO NOT HUMP' and I always figured it was because of the shock loads involved in the process.


Hi all,

Bob, military vehicles are nearly always carried as 'unit trains'* rather than a collection of individual cars. This is because most equipment moves more than one or two vehicles/railcars, but rather a full unit's worth of vehicles. So 'humping' is unlikely, since 'unit trains' usuually have a dedicated locomotive and the cars are rarely uncoupled from each other.

According to the schools and manuals, the chains, etc. are required in the US because the US rail system tolerates a greater amount of variation in roadbeds...in other words, our roads are bumpier. There are a variety of reasons for this, not just "lower quality".

The rules differ for military/DOD steel deck flatcars (chains only) and standard wood deck cars (chains and chocks). The DOD flatcars are designed to use the chains in the most efficient way, and are often the only way to move tanks and BFVs. What Dontos shows below are DOD steel deck flats, so no blocking/bracing is needed.

The rules are very tight, because of past experience and previous problems. For example, most people don't know that a rubber tire sidewall rubbing against a wood bracing block can actually start a fire...but it has, and it can. So there are requirements for separating the two (tarpaper, believe it or not). I've seen pictures of what happens when a vehicle or part of a vehicle (turret, crane, cargo, etc.) comes adrift during rail transport, and it ain't pretty. If you are lucky, no one gets kilt...and the best result is just extensive damage to unit property. Unlucky? Well, that can get really ugly.

C

* A 'unit train' is a railroad term for a train that has only one or two types of cars, that travel as a unit. In the western US, you can often see unit trains made up of 50-70 hopper cars, that carry coal from mines to power plants. There are other types, too.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

I love this board....I'm learning a ton of stuff about trains here that I never even thought of!

...just sayin'.....

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:23 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

"According to the schools and manuals, the chains, etc. are required in the US because the US rail system tolerates a greater amount of variation in roadbeds...in other words, our roads are bumpier. There are a variety of reasons for this, not just "lower quality"."

Jeff Button - Make sure you pay attention in class. You are going to be our designated transportation expert in the future.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

Hi Folks!

As best I can remember, every rail movement I was part of, the requiered number of flat cars would be placed against a ramp at the end of the rail line and each vehicle would drive from the ramp crossed all the flat cars until it reached the one it would be traveling on.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:17 am
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

[quote="C_Sherman"][quote="bsmart"]
I've seen pictures of what happens when a vehicle or part of a vehicle (turret, crane, cargo, etc.) comes adrift during rail transport, and it ain't pretty. If you are lucky, no one gets kilt...and the best result is just extensive damage to unit property. Unlucky? Well, that can get really ugly.

Back in the late 1960s I remember TV footage of a "problem" on the old Rock Island Railroad thru Lincoln, NE. The showed what happened when the barrel of an "Army tank" swung free and was perpendicular to the tracks. In fact the "tank" was an M109 SP 155 and that great big tube was knocking over signs and signals all thru the town until someone could get the train to stop. The RR had to reset most of their crossing signs and signals on that side of the right-of-way!
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: What holds freight down on Railway flatcars?

In the 80's, in Germany, a situation occurred when the unsecured gun tube of a US M60 clipped a pole and then spinning wildly, slammed into a tunnel embankment causing the tank to dislodge and then the train derailed.

Not sure of exactly when, but 'rumor' had it ocurring in the Frankfurt (South) rail tunnel as the train headed to Graffenwohr.

Having been in 3rd Armored Div, I rode the train on many occassions and everytime we went thru that particular tunnel there was mere inches clearence, between the tanks and the tunnel.

On one occassion, we were held on a side rail near the Frankfurt Haupt Bahn Hof, because it was believed (by parties unknown) that our M1A1's would hit the tunnel walls. 9 hour delay, seemed a lifetime.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum